What your ELT really wants to know about pay. A CPO and CFO conversation

[00:00:00] Join us on a journey where we unravel the latest trends, tackle your burning questions and explore innovative strategies that are shaping the future of compensation, all with a coffee in hand. Good morning everyone or afternoon based on where you're located. Thank you so much for joining our webinar today on what your ELT really wants to know about pay. I will turn it over to our presenters to introduce themselves and kick off today's event.

[00:00:28] Awesome. Thanks, Devine. I'm super, super excited to be here. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, depending on where you're calling from. Very excited to be here with Philip this morning. I'm Lexi Clarke, Chief People Officer of Payscale. I've been at Payscale about six years now. Originally joined as a customer of Payscale and have the pleasure of leading our internal people teams, working closely with my guy, Philip, this morning.

[00:00:52] We'll talk a little bit about that. And then also getting a chance to talk to folks like all of you that are likely tuning in practitioners and hearing what's going on in the compensation and total reward space. Previous to Payscale, I spent most of my career in early to mid-stage tech and I am in the Seattle area, which happens to be sunny this morning. And I am feeling very jazzed about that. Philip? Hi, we're Megan Amy from The Megan Amy Show. We're not only tech execs and big picture thinkers, we're also best friends.

[00:01:20] We're curious learners. And on this podcast, we're challenging the status quo and activating the future. And we're going to give advice about work and leadership. Right, Meg? You know, we can't help ourselves. But this podcast is about exploring possibility, not being right. That sounds refreshing. For more, tune in to The Megan Amy Show. Do you want to introduce yourself? Thanks, Lexi. Hey, everybody. Happy to be here. Thanks to Naveen as well for a nice intro. I'm Philip Watson.

[00:01:48] I'm Payscale's CFO and have been so for the past 15 months or so. So I am based out of London, England. It is also very sunny here. So it's probably a super rare occurrence when it is sunny in both Seattle and London at the exact same time. Both cities known for maybe not being so sunny. I'm excited to talk. I'm excited to bring my perspective. It's fun. Lexi and I have a lot of fun with this topic kind of every day. And by fun, I mean there's some sparring, there's some agreement, there's some agree to disagreement.

[00:02:17] And I think it's going to be a good conversation. I think it's a really important topic, particularly because it focuses around how you should communicate if you're a practitioner to the Lexi and the myselfs of the world. And that's just as important as the data itself, how you communicate that data. And so I think this is going to be good. Thanks for having me. I'm excited. I think we've lovingly referred to ourselves as sparring partners before, so I'll take it.

[00:02:44] I'll take it. All in good fun. To Philip's point, like I think this has always been, I think, a really important topic, but I think it's more important than ever now. And we'll lay a little bit of that foundation to kick us off this morning. We'll talk about just aligning the CFO and CPO perspective. So, you know, how do you translate, I think, between those two personas, if you will, and also how do you speak the same language? How do you know your strategy is working?

[00:03:13] And we'll talk a little bit about ROI and metrics and all that good stuff. And we'll give you some takeaways and some steps that you can take immediately after today's conversation to start to hopefully implement that within your organization and whatever makes sense. And as always, we'll try and make some good time at the end for Q&A. So please drop questions into the chat, and we're happy to answer them once we wrap kind of our normal discussion today. I'm excited to jump into it.

[00:03:40] I think just teeing us up, and then we're going to ask you to do a poll so that we can kind of know where all of you are at heading into our discussion today. This is one of the questions Philip and I talk about a good amount, which is, are you paying the right people the right amount to drive the actual outcomes that we need? And most importantly, can you prove it? And so that's really going to be the question that we try to answer through some of the discussion today, some of the content.

[00:04:04] You'll get a little bit of how Philip and I talk about it internally as examples, but also just I think Philip does a great job really representing kind of how finance leaders and CFOs are really thinking about it on behalf of HR and total rewards personas as well. And I think the most important thing is like, you know, you'll hear this all throughout. I think compensation, it's not always just been an HR problem, but I think it's a business problem.

[00:04:29] And, you know, we talk about that a lot and compensation and, you know, dollars related to compensation being one of the company's biggest investments. Philip, I don't know if there's anything that you want to say here to kick us off before we get into the poll. Yeah, like when I think about this question, Lexi, what this question is really getting to is ROI, in my opinion, right? And that's defined by the words right twice in the question and then the words prove it.

[00:04:59] So it's, you know, we're all in business to go provide a return to our shareholders, our stakeholders, and we can debate whether that's right, wrong or indifferent. But that is what happens. And so we all also want to go do the best thing we can for our employees, for our direct reports. It's fun to go give raises. It's fun to hire people. It's fun to do those things. Those things don't need to be in conflict. They just need to be proven that we're making, that you're making the right decisions as a leader, as a company.

[00:05:28] I think that's what this question is really getting to. It's, you know, are you making the right decisions? Can you prove you're making the right decisions? And then if you do that, like good things should follow, right? So when I think about this question to me, it really comes back to an ROI kind of question, but that's probably my finance brain talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it's right. And I think that, you know, your brain is not alone in that question. And I think we'll talk about that and unpack that. And I know, you know, you led a great, we'll talk about this a little bit too.

[00:05:58] You were part of a great panel last week at World of Work. And some folks maybe that are listening and may have joined us for that where we really unpacked, I think, the personas and, you know, what everyone is caring about in ROI, I think is top of mind for sure as you think about both CFOs and CPOs should be keeping that in mind too. Yeah, because I think it's important to remember, Alexi, that like if you're sitting in my seat, you know, in general, you're more than happy to fund things that have high ROI, right? So it's not really a question of like, oh, finance doesn't want to fund anything.

[00:06:27] Like finance is happy to fund the things that provide the highest level of return. I think we, you know, it just behooves all of us to go identify those things and then like prove it, right? Yeah. Because, you know, I would doubt there, unless you're in a special situation, I would doubt there's a CFO anywhere in the world across any type of business model that wouldn't want to go fund the highest returning projects. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, with that, let's kick off the poll.

[00:06:54] We'll leave this up here for a minute, but would love to hear from all of you. When your executive team asks about compensation, what's your biggest challenge right now? Is it that you don't have the data? Is it that you have the right data, but maybe you're struggling to connect it to that business outcome or ROI as we refer to it? Or we're still figuring out what questions leadership should be asking when it comes to pay or compensation. There's a poll tab right next to the chat tab.

[00:07:20] Go ahead and fill out that poll and we'll give it another 30 seconds or so before we see where all of you are at heading into this conversation. I always feel like we need some Jeopardy music for this. Right. Something like that. Yeah. I know. I know. I want to watch the numbers in real time. Coincidentally, I always like been a lifelong dream of mine to be on Jeopardy. I need to get on that as I'm advancing in my years.

[00:07:49] So thanks for the reminder on that. You're welcome. I feel like you would be good at Jeopardy. A little trivia. A little trivia. Yeah. A little trivia. I think so. I think so. All right. Let's see the results of the poll, Naveen, if you will. Okay. Interesting. This is interesting. We have the right data, but struggle to connect it to business outcomes that they care about. I think that's going to be the heart, really, of the conversation today.

[00:08:19] Oh, and now you can see the numbers move around in real time. I love that. Philip, any thoughts on that? I mean, we certainly can and we'll talk to this. I also would like to challenge the assertion that I would like to hear more, learn more about people saying they have the right data. Like, is that true? You know, or do they or do we all just think we have the right data? That's exactly right. Yeah. Talk about that data translation. I think that's going to be one of the most interesting, probably, parts of our conversation, too. Awesome.

[00:08:49] Well, let's get into it. And let me just lay a little bit of groundwork on, I think, the forces maybe that are reshaping the conversation. And I would love, Philip, you've lived, I think, through a lot of the inflection points, obviously, in your kind of CFO seat over the last few years on some of these. So I want your thoughts on this, too. Three kind of big headlines here. Pay transparency, labor pressures, and then obviously technology and data. We could just call that an AI bucket.

[00:09:15] But I think there's even more than just AI that kind of falls into this. All of these, I think, are relevant. My kind of point of view is I do think that 2020 and COVID was a real inflection point as we talked about compensation. And mostly because I think it was just more in the headlines than ever. You had a lot of companies being pretty public around trying to figure out what their compensation strategy was.

[00:09:42] And more so, you know, if they previously had a geolocation of their headquarters and they moved everybody home or remote, like, how does that change how they pay people? It obviously brought different pressures within the labor market that I think impacted those conversations. And then pay transparency took hold shortly after. And then obviously we're living through all of the world of AI.

[00:10:06] So I do feel like, you know, when I joined Payscale in 2020, one of the interesting things that I think we saw is that more than ever, people were, they had this approach historically of setting a pay strategy or compensation strategy or philosophy and never touching it again. Or maybe touching it again like five years down the road if a leader asked about it or something like that. That felt like it was the big year to say, if you don't have one, you should get one as soon as possible.

[00:10:31] Or if you do have one, maybe you should consider looking at that every single year in partnership, by the way, with your CFO and your finance team to say, is it still the right strategy? More than ever, we've saw, you know, white hot labor markets all the way down to huge kind of dips over the last few years. And obviously, you know, I think that's continued that conversation. And then all things kind of pay transparency and AI along the way. But I would love, Philip, like from your seat.

[00:10:59] I don't think that the conversation around compensation is new, but it does feel like it's changed in the last couple of years. Some of these things, I think, play into that. But give me the give me the finance point of view. Give me your point of view on this. Yeah, I think I think I think there are a few kind of big trends happening. And then there are also like the smaller kind of micro fluctuations that happen that I think are all moving in the same same direction that are kind of driving the change that you're feeling and you're talking about, Lexi.

[00:11:28] Like a few of the of the macro type changes, like we have a shift in the generational workforce. Right. So forgive me. I don't remember the names of all the generations when you get to be your mid 40s. They're all just kind of the kids these days. But you have the you have. I think it's like, you know, agency, gen alpha who are becoming a larger and larger and larger proportion of the workforce.

[00:11:51] And they simply have different expectations about how comp is supposed to work, particularly around point number one there in the transparency. They from my understanding, they believe much more. They believe much more strongly in the fact that transparency is a fundamental issue and fundamental concept, whereas people in my generation are certainly above me or the beat. You know, didn't you just kind of took the number you were given and didn't really talk about it.

[00:12:18] So I think the generational shift is one kind of tide that's moving. I think the concept that change always occurs right every day, but it does seem to be occurring faster, which I think is a result of kind of technology. Also, the fact that the world just becomes a more complicated place every day.

[00:12:38] And so I think like some of that agita some people may feel is that, you know, maybe they were used to one pace of change, but now this is like an accelerated pace of change. Right. And I don't I don't think that's ever going to stop. I think the world only gets more complicated at a faster rate every day. And I think the third kind of big macro shift going on is is what does AI mean? Right. Like and I by the way, I'm a skeptic that anybody really knows right now.

[00:13:07] And that's just kind of my my nature. Like I tend to let I tend to let things play out a little bit. But certainly I think it's safe to say that the way we operated our companies, the way we operated comp, the way we thought about our roles as professionals. Pre kind of chat GPT emerging and post is different. Now, where that difference goes, again, I'd like to reiterate, I don't know. And I really don't think anybody knows, but it will be different.

[00:13:35] I feel, you know, a thousand percent confident saying that. So I think those are three kind of macro forces reshaping the conversation. And then we also have like some of the micros that fit into these blocks as well. We talk about paid transparency. There are a ton of laws coming on the books. Right. Or coming or that will start being forced, even if they're already on the books. I think about the laws of here in Europe around the pay transparency rules. I think about some of the states that have recently rolled out more pay transparency, kind of pay equity types of rules.

[00:14:05] And whether you agree with them or disagree with them, they are on the books. They will start to be enforced and they have real implications for how you comp your people, how you run your business. So they have to be they have to be thought about. Well, I think another kind of micro trend is you talk about labor pressures here. Like there is the pay you've got the baby boomers who are in the midst of retiring and will radically reshape the labor force as new generation comes in.

[00:14:32] You have lower levels of immigration into places like the states. And so your labor force could actually start to decline if it hasn't already as a population may or may not start to decline. And so those pressures will change how work is done and what jobs will be there and what skills are actually going to be thought of as valuable or not. And, you know, you maybe read about some of this now or you read about people.

[00:14:59] There's an article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about how more and more people are going to trade schools because they want to work with their hands because, you know, HVAC technicians are in demand. And literally there was a school or a training program that takes, you know, 45 people in their program of year and past years they struggle to fill it. And this year they I think they have five or six X the amount of people that they normally have in the program and things like that. So I think that goes in your labor pressure bucket. And then we kind of talked about the technology and data aspect.

[00:15:29] Even if you have even if you put AI to the side, there's still the idea that technology is going to evolve. People are always going to expect better answers faster. And, you know, those that have access to the right data and the knowledge about how to use it correctly are always going to be an advantage in my mind.

[00:15:47] And, you know, I say this with all the love in the world, but probably like HR teams are like have not traditionally been at the forefront of being able to either access data or if they could access it, like being able to interpret it and use it to go help their business leaders think strategically. They've probably been kind of at the lower end of that spectrum, just kind of based on my kind of experience. I don't know if you feel free to say, like, no, Philip, you're totally wrong. You've seen it differently.

[00:16:17] No, I mean, I think I think you're right. I like I think part of that over the last few years and like, you know, in 2020, 2021, there were articles right around like, you know, more pressure on HR teams to navigate through pandemic, post pandemic, all of these things than ever without without the skills to do that. I also feel like that comes with, by the way, the data piece that you're mentioning.

[00:16:38] Like, I do think that there is more and and by the way, rightfully so, like you can see this positively and say, listen, more people are looking to compensation in HR teams more than ever to bring some data to the table. To your point, the reality is it was not it has not historically been a data driven function overall. And so I think the ability to translate that data into a way that, you know, you can have these conversations that feels like an uphill battle over the last few years.

[00:17:06] And to your point, whether that's an access to data, whether that's a that's not been a natural skill set of the team. I do feel like that's been a learning curve over the last few years and to like kind of put together everything that that you just said to because I think you hit on all the right points. I think about pay transparency and, you know, we even talk about it both on the executive team, but also even in some of our board meetings. It's more than just the legislation.

[00:17:32] It is like the collision of new generations with transparency expectations. By the way, that brings noise like it is noise and distraction from employees saying, why am I paid what I'm paid? Why haven't you told me what I'm paid? I saw this thing on the Internet. I can find data on chat GPT or Claude around, you know, all those things. And that collision of everything feels like it's like right at the collision point of usually HR and finance teams, because you've got HR teams going, I have this demand. I've got to go answer these questions.

[00:18:00] They're pulling data from everywhere. I've got to go and like, you know, increase this because they've seen this thing on social media or LinkedIn or Claude or, you know, whatever. And then you've got finance teams rightfully so going, well, wait a minute, like help me understand where is this coming from? What are like what what's the data that we're using to actually inform the decision? And to this conversation, what's the ROI? So I just feel like putting all of those things together. You have a very interesting story of really where we are today.

[00:18:27] And also, I think the need for, you know, this conversation, but also, again, going back to like, you got to understand if you're a practitioner on this call, the ROI. And by the way, the ROI from, you know, how Philip thinks about ROI, not necessarily how Lexi thinks about ROI. Although we get closer together every single day, I'm just going to say. There we go. Yes. Which means you come closer to my side. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Well, let's OK. Let's talk about the cost of compensation silos.

[00:18:57] And I think this does get into some of like the interesting, you know, how do we look at how do we look at some of these outcomes? How do we actually measure it? A couple of pieces of data here. And I would love I'd love to get, you know, your point of view. So something that I think is not foreign to, you know, HR or comp practitioners is thinking about when someone leaves the organization, what is it going to cost to replace them? So, you know, however you define cost to replace within your organization?

[00:19:26] You know, what does it look like if that person walks out the door tomorrow? How far behind is the data that you're utilizing? Right. So we have this conversation all the time, data freshness. This would be, you know, traditional. I think compensation surveys generally are 12 to 18 months behind in terms of the data. I'm going to guess, Philip, something you're going to say is like it's not you're not looking always at 12 to 18 month old data. And we'll talk about that. Talk about that a little bit as well.

[00:19:53] And then you've got the balance of both, you know, the employee kind of point of view and kind of workers and almost that like where perception hits reality or or, you know, where those two come together, which is employees who are paid at market, you know, believe they're below market. And also, of course, like people leaving and citing compensation as their reason to leave, like all of those things. I think you can call that cost of compensation silos. You can talk about some of that.

[00:20:20] These are all of the factors where whether or not we formally call it out in conversations Philip and I have around, you know, cost to replace or some of these things. These are things I know that are top of mind for me and I know they're top of mind for you and maybe just like in a different way or looking at kind of different numbers. I'd love your thoughts on on some of these and how they come up. Yeah, I mean, these are all these are all real things to look at.

[00:20:45] I I think like if I had a piece of advice for my friends kind of over in the HR and the comp space, it's like if somebody brought this to me and, you know, and said, Philip, these are the numbers. Oh, my gosh, we could we could never lose anybody. And, you know, we have to make sure we're paying everybody that 100 percent all the time. I think I would kind of sit back and say, well, like some of this is planned for right in the budget process. Right. And not all churn is necessarily bad. I think there are like a few few concepts in there.

[00:21:14] Let's take the second one first, like we certainly all want to retain our top performers. And I think if you can get the data sliced and you can get the data in real time or as close to real time as possible so that you are responsive to your best workers, the ones that you want to keep. I think that's how you want to play the situation, at least in my mind. And I think there's a cohort of people that you're kind of like, let's be honest with ourselves. You're like fine with them and they're fine and you don't want them to go.

[00:21:44] But if they did go there, it's not a moral blow. And then there may be a cohort of people, hopefully not, but there may be where you're actually, you know, not upset if they left. And so I think it's I think it's important. Or at least when I look at this from a finance perspective, I try to kind of put the business in those three buckets. And I certainly say, like, for that first cohort, like, let's make sure we're on top of them. Let's make sure we've given them a big hug, that they have no desire to ever proactively want to leave,

[00:22:11] that their comp is right and on time and that they feel good about it, just as importantly, because I think your bottom left box there says, you know, they believe they are paid below market. They may or may not be, but they believe. So let's give them the evidence to show that that they're not. And then I think you can use the same data, but, you know, slides for those other cohorts to figure out the best ROI that we keep talking about. The best ROI may not be to give that middle cohort the highest level raise.

[00:22:39] You may want to give them an acceptable raise, for example. And for the lowest, you may want to send them a signal that says, like, hey, this may or may not be the place for you. So I think it all comes back to, like, say, the ROI that we keep talking about. And if you have the right data, and in my mind, right data means accurate data and data that's on time and data that gives you an answer. It's not just data for data sake.

[00:23:03] If you have those three things, then you can kind of use that to drive whatever behaviors you're trying to drive as a company, whether it's laid out like I just laid it out, which is how I tend to think about my teams. Or whether it's, no, we want everybody, everybody at the company is awesome and we want to give them all, you know, pay them all at 100%. However you want to think about it, however your compensation strategy is laid out, you need to be able to execute against that strategy and to be able to execute against that strategy.

[00:23:32] You need to have the highest quality data that's refreshed as quickly as possible. And that allows you to be to allows you to action against your strategy. Right. And so that's how I think about these things. All of these are certainly real numbers, but it's how you use the data, how you how you understand that these numbers exist, what it really means and how you use that. Data that's really the important part in my mind.

[00:23:56] One of the things I think, and I know we'll get into this a little bit, but one of the things that I think is the most helpful when you and I have these types of conversations. So whether that's like, you know, someone may leave or we're having a conversation around like who's most valuable or highest performers or some of these things, or even like I think back to, you know, we just recently wrapped up our year end cycle. And obviously Philip and I and his leader of FP&A on his team get together and we look at all the roll up and all of those things.

[00:24:21] And the thing that I do appreciate the most out of those conversations is that even if I'm presenting the numbers to Philip and I'm like, we're within budget or some of those things. Philip is always like, tell me what's the narrative? What's the story? What is actually kind of going on and what's driving some of those things? And a lot of times the conversations around the narrative or the story that we're naturally talking about is exactly what is on this slide. So it's thinking about things like these are our highest performing people in the organization.

[00:24:47] We did index a little bit, you know, more on giving this person X percent raise than others, because if they walk out the door tomorrow, it's going to take us a little bit to recruit. And then, oh, by the way, they're going to have a ramp. And oh, by the way, Philip, that's going to directly impact top line. You know, like all of those things. These are natural kind of places where I would say when Philip and I sit down, we have these types of conversations. But I think, you know, I would encourage making sure and we'll talk about again, like some of that translation.

[00:25:15] You got to make sure you know the numbers, you know, the story behind the numbers, some of those things. But the story behind the numbers is important to your finance team and to your CFO, at least from my point of view. I think the best conversations we have where sometimes we're able to agree or agree to disagree or kind of meet in the middle are times where we're like, OK, we both don't love that this thing happened, but we feel like we've got a mutual solution forward. That's the best thing for the business that both of us can live with.

[00:25:40] And we figured out, you know, a process in the future to avoid these types of things down the road. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's maybe an important point for remember when you're talking to your friendly neighborhood finance person is like we are data driven. That is our job. We are going to look at number. You can always always think like we'd like to see something in a spreadsheet. But the way to think about this, and this is what I tell my teams and always have told my teams, it's like you start with the data on the spreadsheet.

[00:26:08] But if you're presenting to an X, you're not presenting them a spreadsheet. You're presenting them the story behind the numbers and you want to go tell them that story. But you have to have the numbers first and those numbers have to be accurate. And then that's the base layer. And then the story is a layer on top. And then if you're like me, you'll listen to the story and then you'll kind of ask the questions. And that's when you would kind of consult the numbers because I want to know that, you know, the numbers. I want to know that the story you're telling me is data driven and is verified and makes sense.

[00:26:37] But, you know, when you communicate with the execs, you shouldn't drop a spreadsheet on their desk. You should drop a narrative on them and have the spreadsheet underneath ready to pull out and walk them through when they get to that point. And like that's what I would encourage everybody presenting to an ELT to do when they're talking about, you know, comp or really anything, quite frankly. I think that's a great takeaway for the audience. Let's let's talk about and like go even deeper into that. I think this piece of data is so very interesting.

[00:27:07] So this is pulled from our 2026 compensation best practices report. If you are not familiar with that, Pace Guild does flagship report every single year. That is made up of responses from probably some of you that are listening in on this call, but all kinds of total rewards, comp practitioners, HR practitioners that, you know, respond to our survey and answer questions around what they're thinking about closing out a year and what's top of mind for them as they go into 2026.

[00:27:33] We asked a question as we headed into 2026 around, does your executive leadership team view the comp function as a strategic lever to the organization? And, you know, how confident are you that your compensation policies drive the right business outcomes? It is interesting, I think, to see the data here. Like I'm pleasantly surprised that the answer is yes.

[00:27:56] But I think what I would be interested in is like, listen, I could say on behalf of my team, I think all of my team is strategically important. But I think there's also I can feel like I know what my team is doing and I know why they're strategically important. But I think communicating that or being able to have them demonstrate that to their finance partners, to their CFO and to the rest of the executive team. Those are two different things. Hopefully they're very well aligned.

[00:28:22] But me fundamentally believing they're strategically important versus Philip seeing that strategic impact in the work he's doing every single day. Like I would just love your thoughts, Philip, on like what. One, how does this data kind of resonate with you? But two, you know, what does that look or feel like to you on like the finance side to be like, OK, that function is producing strategically important work or we're focused on the right things again? I know we'll go back to ROI a little bit, but would love your thoughts on that.

[00:28:50] Yeah, I think it may surprise people. Like, you know, I'm a finance person, actually really value words and was actually always better at kind of reading and writing than I was at math. But and I say this because the important word to me in the graph on the left is the important two words are strategic lever. Right. It's not saying it's not asking in my mind whether a single group is strategic or not, but strategic lever and a lever in my mind is a tool that helps other that helps accomplish a goal.

[00:29:19] Right. And so, like, is the compensation function helping to accomplish the goals that the ELT laid out is how I read this, as opposed to is the compensation function strategic in itself? And like, you know, what that means is comp, just like people in finance, just like people in legal, like everybody in GNA, we are a support function.

[00:29:39] Like we are meant to be that lever to go help execute the strategy, whether that strategy be product led growth, whether that strategy be sales led growth, whether that strategy be any of the other strategies out there. Those two are the dominant in the software space, which is where I spent my career. But I know there are certainly other growth strategies out there. Right.

[00:29:59] And so I also am pleasantly surprised that about two thirds of people like really think that there are views the comp function as enabling better decision making, enabling more thoughtful approaches to executing against a strategy, enabling the company to go hit its ROI goals, you know, vis-a-vis the strategy that's been laid out.

[00:30:22] So, you know, I think that's a good sign. I would have thought people would have said less. So, you know, again, I think that's right. I'm also happy about the stat on the right. You know, I'm not sure I would have thought that's over 60 percent. Thought that they're that like that the orgs are confident that comp practices drive it. So I think that's a that's a test with good work being done kind of across the org, but particularly in the comp teams around around, you know, aligning pay correctly, ensuring the transparency,

[00:30:50] all the things that kind of we've talked about here. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. Let's get into the let's get into pay decisions a little bit. And I feel like maybe this is where we talk about some of the panel stuff that you did last week at World at Work, Philip, because I feel like this is it's similar to that conversation. Philip did a panel at World at Work where he represented the finance persona. But then we had, you know, shocker surprise. I'm going to make your comp persona someday just to see how it goes.

[00:31:18] Yeah, I. But he was he was on stage with, you know, other folks representing these various personas and talking about what's the most important thing to me when I think about a pay decision or what are the things maybe you're grappling with or struggling with or thinking about. And it should be no surprise to anybody on this call. All of these four different folks have very different kind of points of view of things they're thinking about, things they're focused on and maybe things they're prioritizing in their mind.

[00:31:46] I would love like just your thoughts kind of from that conversation last week or, you know, where where did your panel kind of hit on these different points? And maybe maybe some takeaways for the audience and what they should be thinking about in these conversations, too.

[00:32:03] Yeah, I mean, I'll start with my in my perspective in this on this panel and my perspective in real life is that the constraints a finance team has constraints, a company has financially are real. Right there. I know that it is my job to field all the requests every day for more budget. But in my head, I also go like, well, where do people expect this more budget to magically come from?

[00:32:28] Like the magic money tree? It doesn't exist. But, you know, I also know it's my job to kind of go shuffle things around and figure it out when we can. And then when we can't say no, say no, that we can't. But, you know, I think the point I tried to make when we were on stage last week is that constraints are real. Like we have targets, excuse me, as an organization that we need to go meet those targets are for our shareholders or for our stakeholders or for debt holders or for a variety of audiences.

[00:32:56] But those things tend to have maybe less flexibility than than people sometimes understand. We don't have to go deal with those parties. Now, saying that we have constraints is different than saying like the answer always has to be no. The constraint is just a box that we have to fit in, but we can kind of fill that box in with a variety of different shapes. And those shapes may change over time. Those shapes, you know, you fill that box with the way you expect the world to look when you build your budget.

[00:33:26] But then you also have to be agile enough to know that as time goes on, the world changes every day, as we talked about a few slides ago. And everybody has to show a level of flexibility and a level of creativity to kind of refill the bucket with different shapes in my analogy there. So I did have a boss one time who said that constraints breed creativity. And I think that's right. So although I wanted everybody on stage and the audience to know that the constraints are real, I also wanted everybody to know that that doesn't mean the answer is no.

[00:33:56] It just means we have to kind of think creatively and, you know, and make tradeoffs. The world is full of tradeoffs. I was an economics major. It's the study of tradeoffs. Right. And like those tradeoffs just have to occur. And so I think that's the point I'd like to leave people with from the finance perspective. The part I thought was interesting were the people sitting to my left who were portraying the manager and the employee.

[00:34:21] And they got into a real kind of interesting debate slash discussion around. Around, you know, I think I think the employee had kind of seen something on LinkedIn or got to reach out that he was he then thought he was worth X. Right. He like discovered that he thought he was underpaid and his manager when it came time for the in the merit cycle, his manager had no idea he had seen that or thought that or that thought it entered his head.

[00:34:49] And she thought she was delivering to him an appropriate kind of merit increase based on his contributions and where the market was and what budget was available. And then she was blindsided that he was blindsided that those two numbers were so far apart. And and that's like interesting because I think it's it's real. Right.

[00:35:10] Like the manager in that situation, I don't think you could expect her to like be going out and looking on LinkedIn or talking to recruiters or whatever about what every one of her employees should be making. But it's also perfectly reasonable that he went and found the one day to point for himself and that he latched on that because it was so much higher. And they had to go and navigate that. And it at least as we portrayed it on stage, it really impacted their relationship, which had previously been very strong.

[00:35:39] And, you know, eventually they worked through it and such. But, you know, that one really that one really stuck with me, I'd say, because it's it's an easy thing to have happen and not necessarily an easy thing to go solve. It requires some pretty nuanced and thoughtful levels of communication from from the manager, I would say there. And to your point, I mean, I think the interesting part of that, too, is like that is we're going to talk a lot around the ROI.

[00:36:09] Sometimes that reality of what happens all the way at the end, like of that conversation with the employee is the stuff that I will come back to fill up or his team and be like, let me tell you how this landed or let me tell you. And and ROI, I think, is everything we're going to talk about in terms of like metrics. And we'll we'll get into some of the things that Philip looks at versus what I look at and kind of where we meet in the middle. But that also is interesting to your finance or kind of your CFOs. And it should not be your guiding principle of why to go do something.

[00:36:38] But I think to everything that Philip shared, it is an interesting like let's close the loop all the way on, you know, how that thing actually landed or where we need to continue to partner, because that to me is even broader than just the ROI of compensation. That's also just building a good relationship with your finance team or with your CFO so that you can go solve problems in lockstep together. Like the best thing that happens is like when Philip and I, which is most of the time, are like in lockstep on things, the answer shopping that may occur within the business.

[00:37:07] Him and I are both mentally prepared for that to say the same thing and also defer the right parts of that conversation back to each other in the right way. And that's a powerful relationship when you can make sure that you're aligned in that way. So let's talk about maybe that alignment and some of that, too. It's interesting. I do think there's like every so everybody talks about comp. We all talk in different languages.

[00:37:31] You can see on the left like these are the things that me or my team or hopefully all of you consider when you think about comp decisions. What I think is interesting over here on the right is what finance is looking at or what FP&A may be looking at at, you know, the high level of how are we actually going and spending money within the business? And what does that look like when we start to look at, you know, salaries?

[00:37:53] Anyways, I'm going to tell a story without kind of numbers in it, but I think it is a good illustration of something where, you know, Phillip's team and Phillip was looking at something different than a view that I had that actually drove, I would say, a more meaningful conversation. So, you know, Phillip mentioned he's been in the organization for almost a year and a half now. And his reporting in the way that I think he has looked at not just, you know, the compensation metrics, but also just like our our overall revenue.

[00:38:20] It's just it's it's taken, I think, our understanding from a data perspective at the organization to the next level. So kudos to like Phillip and his team for that. And, you know, part of that was, you know, Phillip and team went back and looked at 2024 versus 2025. And Phillip came to me and said, did you know that between 2024 and 2025, we went up X percent in terms of compensation and in terms of specifically salaries? And my first. Per head, right? Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:38:50] And my response was like, no, I did not know that. I know that we budgeted, you know, a certain percentage that is tied to, you know, our biggest cycles. But wait a minute. If you're saying that per head, it went up that much. What other processes are we making compensation adjustments that could be driving that upwards? And also when we're hiring people, what happens and all of these other things?

[00:39:11] And I would say that to me was like a very pivotal conversation for also my team, because I you know, my response was, no, I didn't know. No, I haven't looked at that number all rolled up. But oh, my God, I think we have some probably some opportunity to either not necessarily change and blow up all of our processes unless we need to, but have more of a diligent view into how those individual decisions add up significantly over time.

[00:39:38] And also that gives Philip and I an opportunity to go back to the business and say, hey, based on the decisions we made last year, here's the dollars of, you know, what that looks like altogether. I tell that story because I think it sits right in the middle of this. Like, you know, my team doesn't have the full story. Philip's team doesn't have the full story. But the beauty is you put those two things together and you create a very interesting, I think, narrative of what's actually going on within the organization.

[00:40:06] I'd love your thoughts on that, too, Philip, from your point of view of that conversation. But like that sticks out as something powerful that I think was like a real example that you and I both talked about, worked through and something that like, you know, haunts my dreams a little bit, maybe still. Thanks. Thanks. So nice words on that. That's one of my favorite analyses that we do. But I think you laid out the situation.

[00:40:30] I think it's important for people to keep in mind, having that level of insights, having that level of data and analysis, it allows you to figure out where to go next. So like you said, it's not like we said, hey, everybody, we're not going to give any raises to like make up for this or, hey, we're going to take money back. We didn't do that. But it allowed us to do a few things that allowed us to go tell a story to ELT, to the management layer, and ultimately to the employee base.

[00:41:00] Like, hey, you actually employees were actually paying you more than you may have thought kind of over time. Right. Which is a, you know, I think captured people's attention. It was a little bit of a high. Now I understand. I didn't really think about that way before. But now I see. And yes, yes, you're right. Like, it also allowed us to roll it forward, which is actually the most important component. And so like, what does this mean for the go forward so that we don't get caught with this same situation the next year?

[00:41:29] We go in eyes open. And, you know, if you want to put real kind of tangible thought behind it, you'd say like, hey, if I roll this forward, then I know like it gives me a better sense already of what my merit pool could be for next year. So I can already start thinking about it ahead of time. I can get ahead of it. I can make decisions around it. If that pool is enough or not, if we need to go make other decisions to increase that pool by reducing spend in other places. But if you don't have that level of insight, you're not able to roll it forward.

[00:41:57] Then you get to the merit time and you're like, oh, man, what's going on? We don't have the money. We can't afford this or we're going to blow our budget or whatever the situation may be. So, you know, in my mind, those are the two big, really positive outcomes of that team up that we did. It allows for narrative explanation for decisions that we're making today.

[00:42:20] And then it gives us a much better sense of what the option set is for tomorrow and also gives us time to impact that option set. So, yeah, I think that was like a really important one. I'm glad that you all found it valuable and I'm glad that we were able to do that. Yeah.

[00:42:39] And I think that like the takeaway, I would say like, and we'll talk about it on this, like what alignment looks like, you know, that I also allows Philip and I to find like that point of alignment of, okay, great. You know, to everything that he said, how do we then think about that future facing? So like instead of doing, you know, the rear view mirror of what of what actually happened, what do we change kind of moving forward to align along the way so that we have a consistent kind of narrative and consistent story and planning?

[00:43:09] And I think this is like really what alignment looks like. The reality is everything includes tradeoffs. So, you know, even if Philip joked that I'm just getting closer to him in my thinking, the reality is like, I don't always get what I want. Philip doesn't always get what he wants. But the reality is we meet in the middle. But we do that, I think, in talking about what the tradeoffs are for those conversations.

[00:43:34] And that includes things like talking about how early can we collaborate on market data? What's happening within the market? How does that impact budget? How do we want to cut budget? It means, you know, ideally from that last slide, really making sure that you both understand each other's data sets and deeply, you know, asking those questions, not just when you urgently need to understand something, but like along the way during the year and having different checkpoints. It means, I think, having that ongoing dialogue.

[00:44:03] But like, I think the other thing is having a common language. And one of the things that shows up when, you know, Philip and I are interacting with each other, but like then that trickles down to both of our teams is, you know, Philip and I frequently I'll be like, when you say that word, what does that mean to you? And he'll do the same thing back to me. And that's not us challenging each other. That's literally just saying, are we actually saying the same thing? But we're thinking about getting there in a little bit of different ways. That allows us, I think, to have the tradeoffs.

[00:44:30] But the biggest thing I would say, and, you know, Philip would love your thoughts on this too. Like, I also don't generally have my team or myself come to Philip and say, this is the one thing. We can't do anything else. This is the only solution. I need your partnership. I'll come with probably two, maybe three options where I'll say, listen, we've thought about these three options. Here are the tradeoffs in each of them. Here's what I would ideally love to do if we think we can swing it.

[00:44:58] But like you react and you tell me, what do you think of these? That optionality allows us to have that tradeoff discussion in a really effective way. But I think that's a good takeaway for folks listening in too. But, you know, would love, Philip, your thoughts on this as well. Yeah, and I know we want to save some time for questions, so I'll try to be more brief in my responses here. But I think ultimately, Lexi, yes, we make the trades. Tradeoff doesn't mean that we split it 50-50 every time.

[00:45:25] I mean, sometimes there's, you know, tilt towards you, sometimes it tilt towards me, whatever it takes to get it done. But I think actually the important part for me is that our teams have built up the trust between them so that when you do bring those options, I'm not kind of questioning the options. Is this it? Are they the right options? And I think it goes the other way. Like when I win my team or I bring your team, the data, like we did in that last example,

[00:45:52] you're not trying to blast the numbers and making me go prove them out and show them everything. Like we trust that we both kind of get it. I think that's actually really important. And that kind of fits right in the middle there. That kind of it's part of that unified compensation intelligence. Having the one view, having the teams work together kind of leads to trust across the teams and then allows everybody to go forward and make the best decision as opposed to fighting over the numbers, which I have seen before. Yes, I think that's right. Let's talk about ROI a little bit.

[00:46:21] And would love, I'm going to tee up this question and then I'm actually going to move to the poll. So, Philip, would love your point of view on this while we wait for folks to answer the poll. But how do you know your comp strategy is working? This is the heart of the ROI where, you know, we may have aligned upon kind of points of view or not. We'll flip the poll up. I think it is live, which is we'd love to hear from all of you. Who's responsible for measuring the impact of your comp strategies today? Is it finance? Is it HR and comp? Or is it finance and HR? Or D, unsure?

[00:46:51] We'll wait for you to answer that poll while we yap a little bit around how you know if your comp strategy is working. Do you like that? I'm cool. I have a cool reference. Philip, from your point of view, like what does a working comp strategy look and feel like to you from a CFO seat? I think it's, first of all, it fits in the overall constraints of the company. I'll go back to use that word, right?

[00:47:21] So, it doesn't rely on having to spend more than expected. It doesn't rely on magic having to occur for things, right? I.e., like nobody attritting or anything like that, right? It fits in the constraints that the business is using to run its business. It would be point number one. And then point number two is that it allows for flexibility because as we keep talking about, like flexibility will happen.

[00:47:52] Things will change. Flexibility is always required. The flexibility can be something like, hey, I didn't anticipate this person to leave. They are vital to the organization. We need to go give them a pretty healthy amount of money because they have an outstanding offer on the table that came out of the blue. And by the way, like in my budget, I can't afford this. This has got to be a company kind of pitch in. And like those things happen. And you have to be able to have flexibility on that.

[00:48:17] Then third, it just has to contribute in a meaningful way to the outcomes the company is trying to drive. And like I can't define everybody's outcome here, right? But whether that outcome be, you know, revenue growth, whether that outcome be profitability growth, whether that outcome be something else, market share growth, right? Like whatever that overarching strategy set by the company is, the compensation strategy has to be a component of that.

[00:48:44] And it has to provide positive value that feeds into that overall strategy is how I think about it. Yeah, I would agree. And nice to see, by the way, that 42% finance and HR jointly. We love to see it. We love to see it. I would agree with everything that you said just around how you know it's working. Like to me, maybe said a little bit differently, it does show up in things like, you know, we were just in San Antonio last week doing our quarterly business review. I presented my section.

[00:49:13] We were, you know, just coming out of the merit cycle. And Philip had a great call out where he said, you know, I don't see that anyone left for compensation. Like, is that true within the organization? And the answer was yes. That, to me, is, you know, that's a lacking indicator, right, of, you know, where it might be working. There's a lot that goes into it before that. But that is another thing where, you know, Philip and I aligning on that and also talking about some of those things in the same way.

[00:49:40] It validates that the budget we put in place, the money that we spent, some of those things that we're spending it, and that it is working to retain the people that we need to. Or that, you know, those decisions are kind of working along the way. Lots more than just that in isolation as a metric. But that was like a moment, I think, you know, for us internally that I thought was interesting as well.

[00:50:02] I do want to make sure we hit on the ROI, you know, pieces just before we might still reserve a little bit of time for questions at the end if we can, because I saw some good ones in Q&A. But, you know, would love, this is really the core of kind of ROI, I think, is how do you actually work to connect comp to business outcomes? Some of the things that you see up here, you see, you know, the overall kind of merit increase percentages, comp ratio, some of these pieces.

[00:50:31] But then also, you know, some of the things like headcount and average salary and some of that. I would love, these are the buckets, I think, that, you know, are the first and foremost kind of core to thinking about ROI. Like, you pull all these metrics together, you're going to find a story in there that I think is going to be helpful to driving the right conversation. But would love, Philip, your thoughts on this too. Yeah, I mean, I think these are the base levels, quite honestly. Like, I think the more nuanced approach are things that are built on top of this.

[00:50:59] So while efficiency is important, and I will always ask questions around efficiency, I think one that would be built on top of this would be like productivity, right? So like, are we paying for productivity or paying for somebody to just kind of be there, right? And like, how do you distinguish that? How do you reward that person for increased productivity and items like that?

[00:51:23] Like, that's a real connection to a business outcome, because in order for a business to be more efficient, the people generally have to be more productive. Right? And so, like, I think each of these are probably the base layer for the connection into the business outcomes. That's how I would think about it. But all of these, like, ultimately drive back to a P&L, right? Whether that's appreciated or not.

[00:51:52] They ultimately all drive back to a P&L, which is going to drive, like, which is the ultimate measure of the business outcome, right? There are certainly a ton of other measures, and again, it depends on what your strategy is. But at the end of the day, businesses are in business to make money and provide a return to their stakeholders and shareholders. And I think all of these things, like, drive into the ability to do that. I think so, too. I think so, too.

[00:52:20] I think we're going to hit on these two next slides, which is, you know, how do you actually kind of put that into motion and have those conversations with the execs? I mean, I would say, overarchingly, you've heard Philip and I talk a lot around, like, things that we look for in both our relationship with each other. But I think, by the way, that feeds down to the feedback I give my team around how they present things back to finance or to the executive team.

[00:52:46] It's not just about the number or the offer or what you're trying to go do. It's about the broader story. And so that broader story includes things like, how are we paying against market and why is that or is that not, you know, an issue? What is the cost to replace this person if they walk out the door? What's the risk of, you know, not making this investment versus making this investment? How do we think about AI and, you know, the efficiency gained in the organization?

[00:53:15] Like, you know, the takeaway I would give, we've got an example slide on the next one that you can kind of take away and take a look at. But, you know, I would encourage if you're having conversations, one, you know, build a relationship with your finance partner or your CFO where you can understand what they're thinking about. What's the most important thing to them as it relates to what the business does within the next quarter, within the next two quarters, within the next year? And then think about how compensation and spend really fits in that.

[00:53:45] I like I would go back to what Philip said in the beginning of the conversation where, you know, CFOs are going to want to spend money where they know that there's ROI that is going to have a real positive impact on the business and a positive impact on kind of driving those business goals forward. So knowing some of these things and how to articulate them, I think is really important. And that comes out of that ongoing relationship with finance.

[00:54:07] I'd love, Philip, your thoughts on on any of these as well, before we get to kind of the three actions you can take coming out of today's discussion. Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's right. Like ultimately, ultimately, the business has got to be generating a certain level of return. Compensation is a strategic lever to go help generate that return. I think that it just behooves everybody in that value chain thinking about compensation, which should be a lot of people.

[00:54:35] Right. If not, if not everybody that the way you get there is to be really thoughtful about how are you using that lever? Meaning things like examples could be, hey, you know, this this group of workers is hot in the market right now. So we need to kind of fund that more. Hey, we've had some attrition that gives us a chance to rethink that role. Do we need that role anymore? Can it be combined?

[00:55:00] Do we need a different role that we can repurpose those same dollars for because, you know, when that person who left was hired, that was years ago and the world was a different place. So I think ultimately, the point is you will you have constraints. You only have a certain amount of dollars you can spend. I think it just it it behooves everybody to be super thoughtful about both where and how to spend those dollars. And these are some of the questions you can you can think about when you're trying to think about that. Yep, I think that's exactly right.

[00:55:28] Right. We've got a takeaway slide, I think, just on the three actions. I think you can immediately take following this conversation. I won't read these to all of you. You'll get a copy of the deck so that you can you can take these away as well. But, you know, I think really making sure coming out of this, like thinking about things like defining your philosophy, defining your shared definitions and terminology and then that one source of truth.

[00:55:52] Those things can be really hard, but those are really easy stepping stones that you can take following this conversation today to actually go and implement. And I would be remiss if I did not mention before we flip to Q&A that Payscale can really help you do that. So, you know, one of the things we just rolled out at World at Work last week is this idea of Payscale Intelligence Cloud.

[00:56:13] By the way, the cloud is not, you know, a new product that you can go buy, but the cloud is really about taking all of the amazing things that you know about Payscale, whether that's data, whether that's our benchmarking, whether that's, you know, pay cycle usage and actually tying that into a system to help you be smarter, be able to do all of the things that Philip and I talked about with, you know, presenting the data in a way that really makes sense, not just for the problem we're trying to solve today, but the context of the business.

[00:56:40] One of the tools in there is Compass, and that is a brand new feature for us that went live in early April. Compass allows you to see where your dollars are going and where your biggest investments are. I'm excited about this. As Philip and I got to take it for a spin when it was in beta before, it drove really interesting, I think, and thoughtful conversations around how do we invest dollars? How is that broken down? What does that mean for the validation of where our comp philosophy may be working or not working?

[00:57:10] So if you're interested in that, drop a yes into that poll and we'll get you with the team to do a quick demo. I think we're probably only going to have time for one or two questions if Philip and I talk at the speed at which I know we're capable, at the speed of which I know we're capable of doing, but really appreciate just the conversation today. I'm always happy to do these with my friend, with my friend Philip, but it's always a good opportunity, I think, to interact with all of you too. So, Naveen, keep us honest on questions.

[00:57:39] I'd love to answer one or two if we have the time. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you all for being here for your time. A couple of questions came through. One of the questions was, can you speak to the value of the work to the company versus market data for determining salary? Can you read it one more time, maybe? Please?

[00:58:05] Can you speak to the value of the work to the company versus market data for determining salary? I think I would interpret this question to be, hey, if the market says you need to pay X, but the role at the company is not as strategically valuable, how do you think about tying those two things together? I'd be interested. I think it goes back, Philip, to like the roles that are critical to the organization and the business strategy and kind of the critical talent.

[00:58:35] But I'd be interested on your thoughts on that too. I think it's about market data should not be your only deciding factor. It's a really important one. And I think we talked about the freshness of the data, but I think the equally important thing is, you know, if the market data is saying that you need to go and bump someone's salary $20,000, but the reality is that role is not really critically important in the year that you're in, maybe to the thing you're trying to go and do.

[00:59:03] There's a meet in the middle, probably thing there of, are you going to go spend that $20,000 or not? I use obviously those easy round numbers, but would love your thoughts on that. Yeah. I mean, I think it comes, we talked to that the comp strategy has got to tie into the business strategy, right? And the business strategy, like it or not, may or may not value that role as much as it used to. And I think that's the thing that people have to think through. And it doesn't mean that that role necessarily has to be eliminated, but there are other things that can be done where the transitions do a different role,

[00:59:30] whether the role grows to encompass other things, whether the role can add some other skills to kind of bring it more in line. But at least from my perspective, like as the, every role has got to fit into the business strategy or else like, what's the point of kind of having the role? And that, that may sound harsh, but I actually think that's really true. And that's part of the constraints that like we, that a business has to operate under. I think so too. I think so too. We can probably get through just one more question.

[00:59:59] Um, when the data shows your employees are paid below market, but the attrition rate doesn't support a higher salary increased budget. What else can you show ELT to request for the budget that's needed? Oh, that's interesting. So like the market data is saying you should pay more money, but basically no one's leaving. Like that's, I mean, because of comp as a driver, that that's interesting. I'd be interested, Philip, if you have a take on that one, I could give my like point of view of other ways to talk about it.

[01:00:26] Um, where I do think people leaving the business is a lagging indicator. It's not going to, um, of maybe what's going on, but I, yeah, that, that is, that is a, you should go. I think, I think two things real quick. I think one, um, in the environment that we live in now with as much data, whether you believe the data is accurate or not, that's out there. Like your employees will generally find out. And I think you'd rather them probably not find out on their own that they're underpaid because that, that will lead to bad outcomes.

[01:00:55] And two, I think you always have to be looking ahead. Right. So yes, maybe, maybe market, maybe below market today and maybe not a problem today, but like, what about tomorrow? What about the next day? What about the day after that? Right. So not from a financial perspective, I'm certainly not advocating that everybody be brought to market immediately like today. But I do think that the ELT has got to be aware of the implications of what could happen if, if the employee base is not brought to market. Like, what would that mean for the business?

[01:01:24] Would salespeople leave? Would engineers leave? Things like that. Like, what would that do to the business? So, you know, again, maybe not a thing that's got to be solved today. And maybe everything is hunky-dory today, but that doesn't mean that everything's going to be hunky-dory tomorrow. And as a finance person, as an ELT, I would argue you should rarely be looking backward and you should always be looking forward and think about what's to come in the business. I think that's right. I think that's right. All right. Unfortunately, that is all we have time for today.

[01:01:51] Before we end, I just want to say a really big thank you to Philip and Lexi for sharing their knowledge and expertise, as well as to all of you for taking the time to be here today. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Thanks, Lexi. Bye. Bye.