Ep 141: Boosting Signals for Talent Discovery and Keeping Humans Accountable with Sharawn Tipton

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01] Hey everyone, it's Bob. Welcome back to Elevate Your AIQ, your go-to source for insightful conversations on human-centric AI readiness, talent transformation, responsible innovation, and the future of work. Today I'm excited to share my conversation with Sharawn Tipton, Chief People Officer at Greenhouse, who brings a career spanning recruiting, compensation, and diversity leadership to the challenge of leveraging AI fairly and responsibly to improve hiring outcomes for both candidates and employers.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01] We talk about why the resume has become a weak signal, how AI interviews can give more candidates a fair shot when they're built with transparency and human accountability, and why bringing different ways of thinking into decisions leads to better products and stronger innovation. Sharawn also shares why HR leaders are now at the center of their company's AI transformation, how Greenhouse is helping its own people build AI skills and keep their judgment sharp, and practical advice for job seekers in the tough market.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01] Tune in for an inspiring and practical conversation. Thank you for listening to the show. Let's go talk to Sharawn. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Elevate Your AIQ. I'm your host, Bob Pulver, and today I am very excited for my conversation with Sharawn Tipton. How are you today, Sharawn?

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00] I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me, Bob.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. My pleasure. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. There's a lot to dig into in the talent acquisition and AI space in that Venn diagram. So, yeah, looking forward to it. You know, before we kick things off, I just obviously thank you again for being here and just want to hear a little bit about your sort of career trajectory. I know you've had a lot of goals that are very relevant and meaningful to your job as chief people officer at Greenhouse.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01] And so I just thought you could take us through, you know, Total Rewards and DEI and some of the great work you've been doing.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, thank you for that, Bob. I'd love to. So I started my career in talent acquisition. So my first HR role was as a recruiter for Safeway, and I learned so much. And prior to that, I was in IT as a project manager. And so that has been extremely helpful throughout my career. After that role, I stepped into HR project management on the benefit side and then moved into compensation, working for a large manufacturing company.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00] And then eventually into executive comp, which was a blessing and a curse. It's very technical. It can be very challenging at times, but you learn so much. And what I really walked away from that experience with is business acumen. And so I would say to anyone listening in the HR space, if you ever get the opportunity to step into comp and executive comp, you should do it.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00] Consider it a boot camp because you will leave just with so much, just a more better understanding of how the business operates and what levers really push the business forward. And so I'm very grateful for that experience. And then I spent some time at Micron as their chief diversity officer.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00] The company was going through a transformation at that time and then eventually stepped into a chief people officer role and did a lot of work around opening a new office in Hyderabad, India and performance management. And then most recently, I'm really enjoying my time at Greenhouse. We are also in the middle of a transformation like many companies around AI, which is why I'm here today.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00] And so I would say throughout my career, what I've really enjoyed is joining companies when they're at an inflection point, when they're ready to pivot. And so with that comes a ton of challenges, but also a lot of opportunity. My grandmother always said, never let a good crisis go to waste. Personally, I'm a chief people officer at work, but I'm a chief care officer at home. I care for my 98-year-old grandmother and I'm a peg.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] I'm a proud auntie, no kids. So that's me.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01] Awesome. Awesome. So there's a couple of threads I want to pull on as we go through this conversation, but I will say, I think you joined Greenhouse late last year, right, in 2025. And 2026 has been a year of a lot of greenhouse innovations, I would say, both organically and inorganically. I had the pleasure of spending time with your chief product officer, Meredith, earlier this year.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01] And then as just completely coincidentally, I think 15 minutes later, I was talking to Ophir Sampson from Ezra AI Labs, which you acquired like literally like a week later.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01] So, but as I spoke to your co-founders in the past, and then speaking to Meredith and Ophir, I've just seen this very steady sort of drumbeat where it's emblematic of this theme I have on the show around responsible innovation, right? So you're not just innovating for innovation's sake and throwing out new features and see if they stick or whatever.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01] Really putting a lot of thought and meaning into the types of innovations that you're bringing. Very human-centric, especially on the candidate side, really giving candidates some more capabilities, but also obviously equipping talent acquisition teams with some great new capabilities. So I thought we could just sort of unpack that, maybe starting from like your philosophy around how you sort of execute against that.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01] And because I imagine you're sort of customer zero, right, when Greenhouse is developing.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00] We are, yes.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, we are, which is the coolest part of my role. To be a chief people officer at an HR tech company where you are customer zero is just a phenomenal opportunity. So we tested voice AI first with Ezra, which was really exciting. And we certainly walked away with some key learnings. What I will say, you're right, we are very thoughtful and intentional with what we place on our roadmap. So Meredith is our chief product officer.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00] She has a great pulse on what we're hearing from our customers, where the market is headed. And so we take all of that feedback in as we think about what does hiring of the future look like. And we're also very thoughtful about ensuring that we continue to offer a structured hiring experience. That's something that's really important to me as a woman of color.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00] I want to make sure that whatever we are pushing out to our customers is fair and unbiased, right? And so all of that is baked into our roadmap. And when we saw the opportunity to really partner with Ophir and acquire Ezra and Voice AI, we knew it was the perfect next step for us. Because right now, I'm sure everyone knows this, there's over 7 million people out of work.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00] 700,000 of those are Black women, many of whom, or I would say my family has been impacted by this personally. And so we really wanted to do the work to give everyone a fair shot at finding that dream job. And that's what Voice AI offers. The resume today is one of the weakest signals. AI has allowed everyone to create an amazing resume.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00] But what it also does is it waters down the signal that you get from that resume. And so with Voice AI, we can push many more people through the funnel. And there are people who in the past submit their resume and they would never get an interview. Now we're able to give them the opportunity to have that conversation. And you pick up so much more signal with that, Bob.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01] It's interesting you use the term watered down because I know you've been quoted as saying, how do we filter the flood? Yes. So I appreciate the references there. It is a flood, tsunami some might say as well.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01] And so when you think about the AI interviewer step, which I think is an important one, and it's only a matter of time before more people just recognize that as sort of the new process and sort of convincing them that this is in everyone's best interest. Right. You can mitigate, you know, ghosting, you convey more of your potential to do the job.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01] So how do we, well, I guess let me phrase it differently. Are we as an industry doing a good enough job to get that message across? Because there's a lot of statistics I think you've seen where a lot of candidates are just turned off by the whole, they'll just abandon the whole process if they have to talk to an AI interviewer. So are they just not talking to the right one?

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01] Or do the employers not convey, you know, those mutual, you know, benefits, you know, clearly enough? Because there's a lot of people that love it.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's both, Bob. Thank you for raising that. The trust gap is real, right? There are a lot of folks who look at AI in particular in new technologies and they're hesitant, excuse me, they're hesitant to try this new way, right? This is a change. It's no different than any other change curve. So one, the experience has to be as authentic as possible, right?

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00] So you don't want to feel like you're talking to a robot or a computer, right? It needs to have that authenticity so that the candidate feels comfortable and they feel seen. I think that's what I'm trying to say. They want to feel seen. They don't want to feel like they're just going through steps in a process with a machine. And so we need to get that piece right. And we spent a lot of time at Greenhouse doing that. And I can tell you about, as customers, you know what that looked like.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00] But the other side of it, because we know we have this trust gap, we need transparency. So folks need to understand what is the process? Where do we use AI? Where do we not use AI? Where is human judgment infused? And I think a lot of times candidates aren't presented with that.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00] And so they're caught off guard or they're uncomfortable or they don't have the full understanding of where the decisions get made and why they're made, right? I look at voice interviewing with AI and I appreciate it because, again, I think it's wonderful to have everyone going through the same process, to have a rubric, to be asked the same question. There's some fairness in there, right? And that helps to mitigate bias.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00] But if folks don't understand that that's been infused into this solution, right, and we've thought about that, then it is uncomfortable. And we've all seen those articles in the news around bias and just concerns for what is AI actually testing and is it screening out versus screening in?

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, no, I think those are excellent points. Some of the principles around responsible AI should be incorporating all the things that you just mentioned, especially the transparency piece, but also explainability.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01] Like, can we explain to both the recruiting team and to the candidate that, you know, the AI is not making, you know, decisions unto itself, that it is giving us an output and we're asking it to basically show its work, right?

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01] Show me the logic, show me the thought path or the simulated sort of thought path of how the AI was ingesting and how it was interpreting that information that you've provided. And I think over time, if more and more companies do provide that level of transparency, here are our expectations for your use of AI in the process. You know, use it here, but not here. That's right.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01] And then we can start to, you know, sort of reestablish some of that trust that's been missing. The other thing that, you know, in my own experience, it's been a while since I interviewed for a full-time job, but I feel like there's a lot that just doesn't get...

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01] I think people assume that a human is going to have, you know, empathy and you're going to have a natural conversation and that that is the only way you'll ever, you know, get through because they have some sort of bias. They have their own bias against the technology trying to, you know, sort of simulate, you know, that human empathy.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01] But I must say a lot of the, at least first contact, so that recruiter phone screen, as talent acquisition people would call it, but to a candidate, it's an interview, right? It's, I get to move past, you know, the resume. But a lot of the time that recruiter phone screen, that initial short interview, it's quite robotic in its nature, right?

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01] You're following, you know, that recruiter or that junior screener recruiter is often following a script. So I'm not sure what kind of empathy you think you're getting out of that, but it's not the most natural of conversations, I would say.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00] You know what? You hit on so many brilliant points. I think that's absolutely true. But we know that being said, like if you go back to when ATMs came about, right? I'm older, so I can remember that transition. You know, you still, people still felt like, gosh, I want to go on the bank and talk to someone. So I think it's a very natural feeling to have. But as we progressed, we found that it's much more efficient, right?

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00] To utilize the ATM for certain transactions, right? To get cash, to make a deposit, things like that. And then if you've got other things you need to do, you go in and you, you know, if you're doing your financial planning, you go see the banker, right? And this transition with AI is no different. What I will say that's really important for us at Greenhouse is that every decision has to have an owner. And every outcome has to be traced back to a human decision. That's really important.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00] So we still ensure accountability and that our system is, has governance layered on top of it, right? That is a non-negotiable. Being able to explain how we got to the hiring decision is a non-negotiable for us. So if AI can't explain itself, then I would say it doesn't belong in the hiring. And so that's something we stand out on.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00] And I think it's important for folks listening to know that there's also governing bodies around this and certifications. And so for us at Greenhouse, we have an ISO, IEC certification that independently validates how we build, govern, and operate our products. And so we aren't just saying, yes, you know, it's not just Sharawn saying, yes, we're looking at bias. I'm a woman of color.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00] We also have the protocol in place to make sure that that happens. And I think that is, you know, really important in this day and age because, again, we know we have that trust gap. And we want to make sure that the products that we're pushing out are considering everyone. Now, what I'm really excited about, Bob, that I want to share is in addition to the certifications, because we are customer zero, one of the things we've done at Greenhouse is we've pulled in our employee resource groups to help us test.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00] So they tested voice AI and they have different accents and different ways of conveying information because we're a diverse company. And so we want to make sure that we are designing for everyone in that program. It is an actual program that we launched in partnership with product, and it's called Inclusion by Design. And so we make sure anything that we roll out considers everyone.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00] And that's really important to us.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01] No, I love it. I love it. I mean, you preempted some of my questions to unpack the responsible AI piece more broadly. And I think you've hit on that as you're evaluating these solutions before they even get deployed inside Greenhouse, inside Customer Zero. You're getting all those diverse perspectives. You're incorporating the cognitive diversity as well as the diversity of user experiences into how these products are built.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01] And so I guess one follow-up question I would have is around when we think of AI readiness, I always sort of add the responsible sort of qualifier at the beginning of that.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01] So as you think about the organization more broadly, not just within talent acquisition or even within HR, have you instilled, you know, that concept that we are sort of, I always say we are all responsible for responsible AI. But, you know, from a greenhouse perspective, how do you sort of instill that sort of philosophy across the organization?

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, gosh, I love this question. So we are no different than any other company going through this transformation. And so one of the bodies of work that I'm focused on is our internal AI transformation as a company. So there's AI in our product and then there's AI with our people. And we have done a lot of enablement to really help our team members through this journey. It's part of our employee value proposition.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00] It's a gift that we're giving to them to say, hey, we will help you to upskill in this area. And our expectation is that all of our team members are AI fluent. And so that means different things for different roles. But we really are focused on, OK, what are the tools our team members need around AI for their job? How can they be more efficient and how can we help them through this transformation?

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00] The other piece of that is the responsibility piece. And so we are very clear at Greenhouse that anything that AI hands to you, you are accountable for, right? And so we encourage our team members to use their discernment, to push back, right? To challenge the data that AI is giving them to ask more questions.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00] And again, thinking about my grandmother, one of the things she told me growing up is anyone can have a recipe, but not everyone can cook. And I think that is what we want our team members to understand. It's like, yes, AI is going to give you the recipe, but we still need you to cook. Like, you have the secret sauce. You know where to poke holes. You know the questions to ask. You know if the information doesn't look right.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00] And also, like every company, Bob, we've experienced some AI slop. And so we want to use that as an opportunity to say, yes, OK, we can produce really long documents, but what is the value? What is the impact? Who is the audience and what do we really want them to understand? And that, again, is the cooking, right? It's having that discernment.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00] And so we tell our team members for every workflow that we introduce, for every agent, there has to be one person that is accountable for that.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01] I'm sort of smirking at your analogy because I used a similar one the other day. I said anybody can go food shopping. Doesn't mean they know what to do with what they just bought.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. That's exactly right.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01] I wanted to dig a little deeper on the sort of cognitive diversity and everything that has gone into, you know, the evaluations and making sure you've accounted for all of those different perspectives. But, you know, reflecting on all your experience with DEI and I think at Greenhouse you used the IDEA acronym. Yes. Is that right? Which I love. So inclusion, diversity, equity, allyship.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01] I guess overall I'd like to get your perspective on how those types of programs have evolved in this age of AI and, you know, are things getting better or worse? Is AI an opportunity to sort of, you know, level the playing field a bit?

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01] But also I just feel like as DEI can be sort of this, you know, third rail topic these days given our sort of political climate, I still feel like responsible AI and human centricity almost by default sort of embody all that those programs were intended to represent by the nature of the explainability of decisions. Fairness. Fairness.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01] I know we're going to, we'll talk a little bit later about like, you know, compensation and things like that. But just in general, as we're making decisions across the talent life cycle, it just seems like if you're a DEI advocate, you're almost by default a responsible AI and human centricity advocate. So I just want to get your thoughts off.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00] I love that. Plus one to that. So I would say, yes, things have certainly changed. What has not changed, though, is companies need innovation. Right. And we know when you have diversity of thought, diversity of team members, you get different ideas on those on the table. And those ideas ultimately lead to the best innovation. That has not changed.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00] And so when you have something like voice AI, you are able to interview more people and hear from more people. You can cast your net wider because what you're looking for is the best and brightest. And you're looking for those diverse perspectives to come in and use their discernment and challenge. A great example that I love to quote is Frito-Lay. They partnered with their employee resource groups with new product launches.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00] And one of the things that their Hispanic employee resource group launched was the guacamole Dorito chip. I love Doritos. That was one of their number one selling chips. Right. And that ERG group partnered with them to understand, you know, is the texture right? Is the taste right? Does it have enough lime in it? And that's an example of how companies can monetize diverse perspectives. Right.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00] To enter new markets and to really have an understanding and to design for their customers. And Greenhouse is no different. And that's why we pull in our arbors to test our solutions. That's why we are customer zero for hiring to make sure we're able to cast our net wide enough and bring in the best and brightest to our organization. So, yes, a lot has changed, but the need for innovation has not changed.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00] And so what I would say for us at Greenhouse with our idea program, it's really about designing for flexibility, designing for everyone and making sure that every voice is heard and everyone has an opportunity to challenge us to be our very best. And that's what good hiring looks like. What's the odds that the best person for the job is your neighbor?

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00] Or maybe, right, like referral programs are great, but maybe not, right? There's, what did I say? Seven million people out of work. And so it may be that one of those seven million, this is their dream job that you're posting for. And imagine the passion and innovation someone's going to bring when they identify your role as their dream job. I just hired a candidate, Kyle Hanson. He started yesterday as my director of People Ops.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00] He identified our role as his dream job. And so you feel that when he interviews, we felt it and you feel it and you see it on day one. And that's what great hiring is about.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01] It's so encouraging to hear you talk about all these variables that go into, you know, how you think about running your team and how you support everyone across your extended workforce. I just, it's also a reminder about all the things that I used to work on when I was in enterprise at IBM. Spent a lot of time impressing upon people the importance of collective intelligence and collaborative decision making.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01] And a lot of that tied to innovation management and ideas and, you know, getting those varied perspectives to understand, is there something we're overlooking? Is there a market that we're not targeting that we should be targeting? Does this intersect with something else that some of our colleagues or partners are doing? And so without those diverse perspectives and experiences, it's hard to come up with the optimal solution.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01] So really encouraging to hear some of those firsthand examples, Sharon. I want to talk about pay equity. I know you guys have done a lot of work in this area. And I will preface this by saying that this is not my core expertise, but I consider myself a lifelong learner.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01] And so I've been trying to understand the, I guess, the intersection of, you know, responsible AI and human centricity in some of these core HR areas. And this is one of those. So talk to me about some of the things that you guys are doing, you know, the fair pay initiatives and some of the things that you're seeing there.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So it is an exciting time for HR with all that we can do with AI capability and for compensation in particular. And so pay equity is something that is very near and dear to my heart. I mentioned I started my career or spent a lot of my career in compensation and we don't always get it right. And there's a number of reasons for that. Sometimes we know underrepresented groups don't negotiate for pay. Things happen. Ranges change.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00] The market moves. And so what we're seeing with AI, and there's a lot of great companies out there that have infused AI into their pay equity tools. But what we've seen is we can more quickly get at the data and look for outliers, right? And that's what you want to find. And a lot of times that population is so small, right, that you're looking at, you may miss it. And so AI allows you to normalize the data.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00] So you are able to pull out those anomalies or it allows you to consider, oh, I just had a merger and acquisition. So that's going to skew my pay data. So that's going to skew my pay data and I need to factor that in. And so you're able to do many, many variations of scenario planning to ensure that you are paying folks fairly. Or if there's an outlier, you understand why. And this is where that discernment comes in, being able to cook. You can explain that, right?

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00] If someone's lower in the range, are they new to the role? Were they just promoted, right? So oftentimes there's a reason, but we need to be checking for that. And sometimes corrections are warranted. So like many companies, if we see something, we immediately take action to correct it. But we want to make sure your pay is not based on your ability to negotiate. It's based on the value that you're actually bringing to the organization.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00] And so I spent some time on the Fair Play Workplace Board, and that was really incredible work because I do, you know, I want everyone to be paid fairly. That's, you know, compensation isn't everything, but it's certainly important. And so that's the commitment we've made to our team members at Greenhouse, that you will be paid fairly for the work that you do. And we will check. We have checks and balances to make sure that takes place. But now we have AI, right?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00] Which can look at far more data than a comp analyst can. And so AI is a tool. It's not the end-all, be-all. And so I just really want to, one, encourage my HR professionals and my comp professionals out there to be looking at the data, to be pressure testing. Are we paying fairly? Where do we have gaps and why? But also use your expertise. You've been in comp. You know what good looks like.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00] You know how to pay people. Don't rely solely on AI. It is a tool to help us make the right decisions and to keep our folks motivated and engaged and to drive performance at our organizations.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I mean, this could not have been a straightforward exercise, right? Because of some of the things that you alluded to, Sharon. You know, if people have historically been underpaid or fall prey to some of these sort of shortcomings where candidates didn't negotiate or they were historically underpaid or whatever. Well, then you can't just train the AI on that historical data. That's right.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01] You've got to really understand what are, to your point, what are the key in-demand skills and how are those compensated? And then let's look at the scope of this person's entire role, which, of course, is changing by the month. And so, yeah, I mean, I think people, it's like interview scheduling. People just assume, what's the big deal? You just, you know, look at two different calendars and just find a good, you know, meeting time.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01] Like, it's not nearly as simple as it may appear. And you do have to account, especially with AI, you've got to really understand what is it concluding and what is the evidence that it used to make that conclusion. And then we also have a lot of new roles that are cropping up that didn't exist even a couple years ago. So there is no historical data to even look at this.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01] And so you've got to look at its component, you know, parts and sphere of influence and responsibility in addition to the skills. Right.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00] That's right, Bob. And AI doesn't, you hit the nail on the head. AI doesn't fix its scales. Right. And so if you historically have underpaid someone, it's just going to do that faster and more confidently. Right. If you don't have a structured hiring process, it's just going to scale your current process that may have that bias baked in or those inequities. And so it's really about using AI responsibly. Right.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00] And that is the commitment we make at Greenhouse. And that's the commitment I want everyone to make. And so I think you're right when you say if you're a good steward of DEI, you're a good steward of AI because you're inherently going to know that there could be bias. You're already looking for blind spots as an ally or as someone from an underrepresented group. You can spot that. And AI is no different. Right.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_00] It is a tool that needs to be managed, use responsibility and have oversight by a human.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01] The role that you have, I feel like it's probably the most important one when it comes to AI transformation, because if you do it right, you're doing it in a human centric way. And some of your AI investments are not just in the technology. It's in the very people that are going to drive your innovation pipeline and give you a competitive advantage and create the value that you're looking for.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01] So do you feel like, I know you're sort of at the epicenter of this and you're fortunate to be at a prominent talent technology vendor. But as you talk to, you know, your peers of your customers and others, are they sitting down? They've been given this sort of proverbial seat at the table, but are they sitting down?

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01] Are they taking advantage of this opportunity? I think they are.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00] So like if you had asked some people officer five years ago, would we be leading the AI transformation for companies? I think our answer would be no, right? It was seen purely as technology. But what we're seeing is this really is a culture shift, right? This is a moment and it doesn't work. You can roll out the tools, but if you don't have the mindset and if your people aren't comfortable and they don't trust, you're not going to be successful.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00] And so I do think HR leaders are stepping up and saying we have a really important role to play. And our role is to help move the organization forward and help them to adapt and to also demonstrate to them what good usage of AI is. And so that is a partnership between the CPO and the CTO. And this is our moment.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00] I also think, and this is what I tell my team members, it's a great time to go through this learning curve because everybody's going through it, right? And you don't want to miss the window of opportunity. You don't want to go for your next role. And you're now expected, right, to understand how to redesign a workflow with AI or how to manage it responsibly or how to increase your output for your team. You want to learn that where you're at in an environment that is safe.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00] And I do think HR leaders are providing that. And they're also looking for how do we transform our own people organizations. And so, you know, hiring is one way and that's a really great place to start in an effective way. But every HR center of excellence is going to be touched by AI. And so it is a pivotal moment. And I think everyone's stepping up. Now, everybody's in different places, right?

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00] So some are in the ideation stage and others, such as Greenhouse or Zapier, you know, we are leading from the front and really pushing forward in our product and with our people. But it's not too late, Bob. What I would say is for those who are maybe haven't sat down at the table, come join us. Because there's still plenty of time and there's plenty of work to do.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00] And it's really going to ultimately impact your people and the opportunity they're going to have and your organization's ability to realize their goals. And so we need all of our HR leaders to step up in this moment.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01] When it comes to leadership, I guess I'm starting to see a gap closing between where like individual contributors are in terms of their AI fluency or I usually use the term AI readiness to incorporate, you know, mindset and adaptability and things like that.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01] But there was a time not that long ago that it seemed like leaders were not keeping up, whether that was because of the just demands of the job or they just left it to folks like you. Or it just seemed like there was a gap between the fluency and the readiness of the employee base at large versus leadership.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01] So I'm curious if you see that closing and other deliberate programs that you've set up to ensure that, you know, leaders are in place too. And, you know, they need to understand both the risks and the opportunities when they're presented, right?

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I've certainly seen that. And I think leadership is so important. We have to demonstrate what we expect of the organization. I think it's really unfair for us to roll this out and say we expect all of our team members to be AI ready, right? But our leaders aren't. It's like who's going to buy into that?

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00] And so we've been really intentional when we rolled out our change management and communication to say, hey, this transformation is sponsored by our CEO and all of our leaders will move through this with you. We had all of our leaders go through a training and we hold our leaders accountable to, one, showcasing what they've built and what they've learned.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00] And so you'll hear our CFO when he gets on our all hands say, hey, I'm using a deck and I created it with the AI. And these are the parts AI gave me. And these are the parts, you know, where I infused my discernment, right, to make sure it was appropriate. So we call out where we used AI for solutioning or for decks or whatever the case may be to demonstrate that we're using it. We also share where we've, you know, fallen short.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00] Like, hey, I was using AI today and I kind of went down a rabbit hole and I didn't get what I needed. This is where I got stuck. Who can help me in the organization? And so the communication piece is really important and the commitment. In addition to that, we've been really clear with our senior leaders and our managers on what we expect from them.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00] And so we just had our monthly manager meeting and the whole meeting was on AI readiness and how that looks different for every role in the company and how they can help their team members to understand what's expected of them. The way an engineer uses AI at Greenhouse is going to be very different than how a marketing analyst uses AI, right? But the expectation is that they're both using it. And so helping managers to understand that's a new way of managing, right?

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00] And also, I think in the past, we've sort of rewarded people. And how many people do you manage, right? Are you leading a team? What does that look like? Now you've got agents, right? And so it's also who you managed and what did you build. And that's a shift that we're making in our performance management as well.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00] And so, Bob, it is a very intentional effort to showcase to our team members, this is what our leaders are doing and this is what we expect you to do when it comes to AI adoption. And it's okay to make mistakes. We've also got our ERGs talking to our team members about AI anxiety because we know that's real as well, right? And we're not expecting you to come in on day one and have an army of agents that you built now reporting to you.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00] But we are expecting you to use the tools that you have smartly to save yourself time and to give your team an uplift and to be able to look at a workflow and say, what pieces can be agentic and what pieces do I still have to own?

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, no, I think that's amazing. I guess the question I was going to ask is, you know, are people ready? And it seems like you're taking a concerted interest in what their starting point is, right? And if that is fear versus, you know, excitement or what have you.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01] Because certainly there's trepidation, not just with any particular piece of technology, but just the very concept that you're sort of training, you know, this digital, you know, entity about how you do your job, right? So that itself creates anxiety in a tough job market, right?

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01] And so it sounds like you guys have been really, as we said at the beginning, very thoughtful and intentional and empathetic about what these experiences are like while recognizing that there's a lot of opportunity if we can get over some of these hurdles. And I think all of that ties into, you know, why the mindset around learning and adaptability and growth is so important.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01] None of us can be complacent with our current, you know, skill set and the way that work happens today. And I guess I'm curious to get your thoughts on just how well people are sort of adapting to that and recognizing that they may have to sort of disrupt themselves a little bit and disrupt their own role. But that in itself could trigger more anxiety, I suppose.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01] So just thought of getting your thoughts on that.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Thank you for this question. So one, I would say, yes, we're meeting people where they are. So one of the things we did was we launched a survey and had our employees respond. And based on that, we said, OK, you're in the beginning stages. This is your learning track. You're intermediate. You're advanced. And so I think that piece is really important because everyone in the organization is in different places. It's no secret that AI will take over some tasks that we do today.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00] And you touched on this earlier, Bob. There are going to be new opportunities that we're just now discovering that are going to come into play and be available. And so what we're telling our team members is, yes, it may be uncomfortable and you may disrupt pieces of your day-to-day work. But what we're hoping is you utilize that time to do more deep thinking, to innovate, right?

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00] To do things that only you uniquely as a human can do or should do. And when you do that, ultimately, that's going to create more opportunity. That is what we believe. And that's what we're encouraging our team members to do. And I think that helps to pull some of the stigma away, right? I do think, and I would say this for anyone, right?

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00] I do think we should look at the work we're doing today and the value that it brings and always be questioning ourselves, even before the AI, you know, moment that we're in right now. Is this creating value for the organization? Could this be replaced, right? I think that's a fair question for anyone to ask. And people should have been doing that before AI.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00] And after we go through this transformation and everybody's upskilled, you still should be asking yourself that because jobs aren't static, right? They evolve. Things change. The needs of the business change. That's just the reality. And that is why upskilling is so important, right? You constantly want to be learning and looking at what's going on in your industry, in the market, in your area of expertise so that you can be ahead of those changes, right?

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00] And constantly be preparing yourself. So it's not, you don't just get a job and that is, this is what you do forever. It changes the role of the CPO. Oh, my gosh, we've been through COVID and we had a huge shift in how we lead organizations through that moment. We had the great resignation, you know, all these different things that impact how you work and how your job evolves. And so this moment is no different.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01] I think that's also the way you've approached that is also important in the reinvestment conversation around, well, now that we've, if we think about automation as opposed to true AI and automation powers, efficiency gains, you know, cost takeout and things like that. And it's like, okay, we've achieved value from that, but how is that value going to be reinvested?

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01] And so by taking your approach, you're expressing to the workforce that, you know, some of that savings is going back to you, not so that we can give you more of the same work to do and just put more on your plate. But that time that has now, or the capacity that has now been freed up is, can be used to mutual benefit, right?

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01] It can, you can upskill yourself further on the AI paths that are relevant to, you know, your intended, you know, career growth and professional development. You're going to help fuel, you know, join this other team to help move this idea forward towards a potential seed investment.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01] And maybe that's a new area of growth for the company, or maybe it's a new, you know, innovation that we can put out that helps candidates or whatever it is. And so, so I think that's important to, to build, again, I guess it's, it's sort of building on the trust angle to say, you know, we're, we're making this investment in you, you've made this investment in us.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01] And we're both going to reap the benefits of that because, you know, we're also, as if we didn't have enough to do, we're also trying to sort of combat the, you know, low, low engagement levels, you know, shrinking tenures. And there's all these things. And that's the kind of investment from an employer that's important to reverse some of those trends.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. That's exactly right.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01] So, Sharon, as we wrap up, I'm just wondering if you have any sort of closing recommendations for, for your peers, you know, talent leaders, transformation leaders, or even for candidates as they're trying to navigate the job market these days.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So I've given some advice to my peers already. I'll just say it again. Lean into AI. We'd love to see what you build as, as this collective community of HR professionals. And if you haven't jumped in, jump in, join us. To job seekers, I, I do want to give some advice because the job market today is so different than what we've experienced even just a few years ago.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00] And so my advice would be, and I'm also speaking to my cousin who has been looking for a job and is a bit discouraged. So this is for him. I'm not going to call his name out. But get really clear on what it is you want. And then go after it as if that is the job itself. That's really important because things have changed. It's, it's not always going to come to you. You're going to have to go after it. But I would also say apply early. Timing still matters.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00] If you have the opportunity, identify your dream job. We know that folks that identify a dream job in greenhouse are more likely to land that job. So do that for yourself. And lastly, and we touched on this, Bob, keep learning while you're looking, right? And so just because you're out of the market, you want to be doing things so that your experience and your examples are relevant for today.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00] And so that means listening to this podcast and studying up on AI, you know, volunteering. Like don't let your professional growth stop while you're out of the market. You want to be demonstrating learning agility. That is what we're looking for in this world of AI. Learning agility and discernment. And just be encouraged. Your dream job is out there.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01] Excellent. Excellent place to end the conversation. Sharon, thank you so much for sharing some of your valuable time with me. Some great insights and takeaways from this conversation. So I really, really appreciate it.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you so much for having me, Bob. I appreciate you.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01] You bet. You bet. All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We will see you next time.