Improving Communication in Hiring

[00:00:03] This episode is powered by Specialized Recruiting Group in Livonia, helping businesses find top-tier talent and professionals land their next big opportunity. Welcome to Ghosted by the Machine, the podcast where job seekers break through the algorithm and finally get heard. No filters, no bots, just real conversations about what's actually happening in today's hiring system. I'm your host, Mark Lane, and today we're talking with someone who's seen hiring from multiple angles.

[00:00:30] As a recruiter, business owner, and founder focused on improving the candidate experience. Megan Giuliano is the founder of DG, I hope I got that right, Staffing Solutions, and CEO of JobGhost, a platform designed to help bridge the communication gap between employers and candidates. Megan, welcome to Ghosted by the Machine. Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me on. So, Megan, before we get in all that hiring stuff, tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:58] How did you end up in recruiting and what have you learned along the way working with both candidates and growing companies? The short story of how I got into recruiting is that basically I started my real big girl career working in a call center, collecting on student loans. I was getting yelled at all the time and I was on the phone all the time. And I had a couple of friends who were in recruiting and they were basically on the phone all day too, except for they were making commissions and not getting yelled at as much as me. So I was like, I need to find a way to do that.

[00:01:28] And so I got into recruiting about eight years ago, started off recruiting recruiters, recruited in finance for a little bit, and then was in tech for quite some time. And then since starting Digi, I've mostly focused on placing sales and go-to-market talent at SaaS startups. Okay. And you want to talk a little bit about JobGhost at all? Yeah. So JobGhost is a platform that we had created for hiring managers, recruiters, char executives,

[00:01:58] anybody that hires to help them prevent any ghosting from happening on their end. So it's basically like automatic follow-ups and things that they can enable to ensure that they never ghost a candidate. That's great. Anytime I hear ghosting, my ears go up, you know? So one thing I've heard you say is that these companies aren't losing candidates because of compensation. They're losing them in the gap.

[00:02:27] So what do you mean by that? And what's happening between employers and candidates that are causing people to walk away? Yeah. So what I meant by that is that a lot of times like companies are not having trouble filling roles because they're not meeting candidates' salary expectations or whatever it is. It usually comes down to their interview process and how long it's taking them really to get through the process

[00:02:51] as well as to give those critical updates that are needed along the way to keep candidates engaged and feeling excited and like they're a good fit for the company as a whole. So do you see ghosting as a big communication breakdown? As, you know, we talk about it all the time that the biggest frustration with job seekers is being ghosted by the employer. And, you know, where do you sit on that? I think it's huge.

[00:03:20] I mean, I see ghosting happen on both sides, which we could also get into, like from like being ghosted by candidates as well. But I see the biggest, I think it's, there's a bigger issue on the employer side where both hiring managers and internal recruiters are ghosting candidates, unfortunately. And I think most people do not mean to do it. I think they just get caught up. They're super busy. A lot of people also are not taught how to hire very well or like why any of that stuff really even matters.

[00:03:48] Also, you know, of course it damages these companies' brands. But the problem is, is that a lot of times the person doing the hiring and the person who cares about the company's brand and bottom line are not the same person at the company. So if like this got back to the CEO of a company and he really saw like big picture how, you know, his hiring, his or her hiring managers were ghosting candidates and how that was affecting their bottom line, like he probably, he or she'd probably want to get involved, right?

[00:04:16] But it just like doesn't necessarily trickle up to that level where people are not on the same page with that at all right now. And we talk a lot about leadership and how they contribute to that. And like you said, there's that gap between them and the hiring department, talent acquisition, human resources. Is this something that will change or is this something that we're going to have to deal with as we move forward in the job search? Hope not.

[00:04:44] I mean, I've been trying, I know you have too. I mean, I like, like my tagline says, it's like something I literally will not shut up about. Right. I don't know. I think like, I think a great start to all this is people like you and I, and I know there's definitely many others on LinkedIn and things who are just like talking about the problem because like anything else, I think having some awareness is a really good first step. And then I think there, you know, I think there's ways to definitely prevent this to at least give candidates updates in a timely manner.

[00:05:13] I think that's the biggest piece to all of this is that companies just do not communicate enough or they just shut down or they decide to just wait until they fill a role and then send out like some sort of mass communication to anybody that applied or was involved in the process. It's, it's, it's, it's really sad because people are, they're losing everything. It's, that's the sad part is they're losing their livelihood. They've lost their livelihood. They're losing their homes.

[00:05:42] They're losing everything. Marriages over this. I mean, the mental anguish that comes from ghosting is just incredible. I had no idea until I got into this. I'm sure you feel the same way is that, you know, these companies, they, they're being inundated and you can't blame them all the time because they're being inundated with hundreds of thousands of, of applications for these jobs.

[00:06:07] They post a job and in two hours, they've got 500 resumes to sort through or applications. So something, you know, is, is it AI? Is that the filter that's, that's bogging all this down? Is it Indeed? Is it LinkedIn? Is it Job Recruiter? I love watching those commercials that come out and say, Hey, we can get you a job like that. It's like, where have you been all my life? You know? Yeah, I know.

[00:06:36] Or like on the hiring side too, I hear those commercials on podcasts and I'm just like, I don't think that tool works as well as they make it sound. Exactly. It's I, I, I just shake my head, you know, and, and this is going to lead into the next question. AI is showing up everywhere in hiring. How do companies take advantage of the technology without creating an experience that's cold? It's, it's not human. It's automated. It's disconnected. How did, how do they, how do they take advantage of this?

[00:07:05] This great, it's amazing. AI is amazing. We all use it every day and everything we do. But you know, I think they've left something out. Yeah, they have. The way I like to use AI, I love AI too. The way I use AI personally is that I use it to take admin tasks and things off my desk so that I can give myself more time back to be human with my candidates and clients.

[00:07:30] And I think that's the missing piece for HR is that a lot of these HR tech tools that have come out for automation and things like that are really cool and they, and they should be using them, but they should be using them in a way where it allows them to, to have more time than to focus on the candidate experience and communication with candidates. It's, it's interesting. I, I did an interview a couple months ago and the girl was 10 minutes late for the interview.

[00:08:00] And while she's asking me the first question here, tell me a little bit about what you think of the company while I get, while I get your information together. And I was like, wow, now AI could have helped her right there. Well, before the interview, you know, made sure that she was on time and messaged her letting her know that. And then she could have had all my questions all put together through AI. Hey, this is his resume. What kind of questions should I be asking him about this or that?

[00:08:29] But 10 minutes late for a, for an interview, I was like, I cannot believe this. Yeah, that's too bad. I mean, of course, once in a while things happen, but we all know that if it was the candidate that showed up 10 minutes late, they probably wouldn't, you know, they'd be, yeah. It was lunch. Lunch. She had a lunch meeting. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I find that AI has helped me in everything I do. I can, I'm, I'm writing an email.

[00:08:58] It takes a look at it to make sure that it's grammatically correct. Or if I'm doing a social media post and make sure that this is in line with, you know, my, my mission statement or whatever. But, you know, I just think that, that AI, the tool for hiring was put into place without them understanding how it can help them and how it can hurt them. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:25] I think the application process as a whole needs a lot of work, but even I think to begin, maybe just putting that on the back burner and focusing on the candidate experience itself. If they, if we could just start on that and, and them making it a goal to keep candidates in the loop and get back to them and not, because to me, that's truly ghosting. I think like when you apply to stuff, a million things and you don't hear back, that's horrible. Then it, you know, that can get to you too.

[00:09:53] But I think the bigger issue to focus on is when people are engaged in the interview process, they should be hearing back from recruiters and hiring managers in a timely manner. Like there should not be weeks going by without any communication. There have been several candidates I have spoken to who interview at companies and then they never hear back. Never. Like three months go by, never hear back ever. I just never knew what happened at all. And that to me is just like so strange.

[00:10:23] And it's like such an easy resolution. Like you could just, of course, it stinks when you get let down from a job and you don't get it, but you'd rather hear something to help close the loop so that you can move on rather than just like always be wondering what happened. Kind of like the dating process when you break up with someone, why'd you break up with me? You know, even that feedback you get, you know, the, the, maybe we thank you for your application, but we found a different candidate.

[00:10:52] But okay, can you tell me why? Can you give me a little feed? That's, that's the other thing that I find very, you name it. But most of them it's over, you're overqualified, which I don't understand. Yeah, I know those blanket messages are, are tough too. I can see both sides because I think the fear is sometimes if, if, and I'm not saying this is right. I think it's just how it is. Like if, if you give away too much information, there's like a fear of being, you know, sued

[00:11:22] or something, but also like not giving any information is really not helpful to anyone either. I think that's, what's nice about working through a recruiter if you can too, is usually they're able to get you a little bit more feedback versus just a blanket, you know, denial email. If, if I was looking for a job and I came to you, what type of, what, what, what information would you give me or recommendations would you give someone these days looking for a job? It would go to a recruiter. Yeah. You mean what, what advice would I give as a recruiter? Yeah. As a recruiter. Yeah. There you go.

[00:11:52] As a short form. What advice would you give me if I came to you? If I was looking for a job? Yeah. So these are some really simple, small things that I see all the time that are sort of like low, low hanging fruit. Have a few different versions of your resume and have some titles at the top of them. Again, you could have a few different versions depending on what you're applying for, but that's one of those things that really helps to make your resume pop and make it super apparent as far as what you're applying for, like what you're looking to do next.

[00:12:20] Because sometimes I might meet with somebody who's been in sales, marketing, maybe they've been a recruiter at one point. It's like, I don't know exactly what they're, what they're looking for. So maybe they have a few different versions on their resume. Maybe they're open to a marketing role and a sales role. So maybe you have one, one copy of your resume that says a marketing professional, whatever at the top, and another one that says account executive, something like that. And then also put your LinkedIn at the top of your resume with your contact information and make it a hyperlink.

[00:12:50] There, there's so many times I see a resume that does not have a link to your LinkedIn and that is super important. Also, you want to make sure your LinkedIn's optimized as well, but that's a whole, whole other conversation. I've gotten a few contacts from people wanting to update my LinkedIn profile, but they were bots. So we won't go there. Got Scott scanned a couple of times. What, what about dates for your resume? Is that, is that important to put all your dates or how many jobs should you have on a

[00:13:20] resume? Because, you know, a lot of people that are older now are being told not to put all their dates on there and only put two or three of the jobs. If they've got a lot of experience, they want you to shorten it up. I've heard that. Yeah. I know. That's so sad. I'm just thinking because at least for me as a recruiter, I get to be the cover letter for the candidate and like explain to my client why you should talk to them. I also understand that when you're not using a recruiter, applying for stuff there, there's nobody doing that for you.

[00:13:50] So you need to, you know, basically sell yourself as best you can to try to get that interview. Yeah. I think in general, keeping your resume to two pages is enough unless the jobs that you've held that would jump onto the third page are relevant enough to what you're applying for. You may keep them on there. You kind of have to like use your discretion. But if you're just like including like that you were, you know, working at a restaurant or that you were working in something else outside of the industry that you're applying to, you might keep it off just to keep it shortened up.

[00:14:20] Okay. Well, that's good. That's good information. So I think the dates do matter too. Sorry to interrupt you. But yeah, I would definitely do at least the years. You definitely want those on your resume. Okay. So if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about today's hiring system or hiring process for candidates and employers, what would it be? I would. Oh my gosh, there's so many. I have to pick one.

[00:14:44] I would really hope that hiring managers, anybody doing hiring really or recruiting would put more of an emphasis around the candidate experience and understand why that matters and make it a goal to treat hiring and recruiting like an actual priority if it is a priority and get back to people in a timely manner and keep the process moving. So that's what that's. I wish they would do that. God, I wish they would do that.

[00:15:11] But then, well, maybe I wouldn't have a podcast or I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if that would be the case. But yeah, it's been an interesting last couple of years going through this process and meeting people like you that help people like me. And I think you've got great perspective. And I think that what we need more of is more people out there helping each other getting through this process. You have a newsletter. You have a newsletter that you put out. Do you have a couple other things you want to talk about? Yes.

[00:15:41] One quick thing before we get into that, that I just it goes along with what you just said. You do such a good job at working your network and helping others without asking for a ton in return. And I think that's a really good point right there that I was going to mention, too. It sounds really like counterproductive, counterintuitive to, you know, when you're searching for a job to just like be focused on giving. But it really it does help to be able to be that type of person in general who's looking

[00:16:07] to help others because you never know when things could come back around your way or maybe somebody that you shared a job with has just landed at a new company. Now they've also put your name in the hat for another position that's open. You just don't know. And, you know, I noticed with me there's there's always people in my inbox asking me to do things for them, which is fine. I love helping people, but it is interesting to see that more people than not are focused on helping themselves versus helping others. So I think if more people could treat their search the way that you have, Mark, that would

[00:16:37] really go a long way for them. I really appreciate that. It's you have to. I believe you have to. And you have to network and you have to build relationships. And that's really when you're in business, you have to build relationships. And I felt that during my journey, I was looking for a job and looking for a new career. I had to I had to just let it out, just let it all out and see and let you know, let God make God help me.

[00:17:06] You know, that's all I could do is he's got a plan and I had to do that. And anybody out there that needed help, I was going to help them. And I'm still doing it. I think it's really. But I really appreciate that. And I appreciate you joining us today. But I want to hear a little bit about your your newsletter also. Yeah, yeah. So I started this little trend on LinkedIn called Friday Feedback. And basically what it means is like, hey, make sure that you give candidates feedback before the weekend on a Friday.

[00:17:35] And also, if you're owed feedback, it's a good time to check in before the weekend, not not just not just sit around and wait for it. And so that inspired me to also create some other stuff around the Friday Feedback trend called I guess I call it the Friday Feedback Club. It's a free community that I've created for job seekers. We just got it started. So it's very, very new. But there's a community in there where people can help each other and chat back and forth and exchange notes. And I'm going to be doing some lives in there.

[00:18:04] And we're going to have some really cool guest speakers too. Then I also have a weekly newsletter called the Friday Feedback Club that drops every Friday. I put tips and tricks in there and insights and things I'm coming across that I think might be helpful for people to read, whether they're hiring or looking for a job. And I also spotlight some of my candidates that I've met with recently and jobs that I'm working on. And what fields are you working with right now?

[00:18:31] I mainly focus in the SaaS startup space. I do a lot of work in health tech, but also in other industries too, like FinTech, InsureTech. Just depends. But that tends to be my area of focus. But I love helping people in general, which is what inspired me to create the newsletter and the community. Well, Megan, thank you so much for your insight and for joining us today and bringing both the recruiter and the founder perspective to this conversation. And you almost got me tearing at it when you were talking about me.

[00:19:01] So I really appreciate it also. And we do this show because we want to get that information out there about ghosting, about jobs, the journey. So if you're watching or listening and thinking, hey, I've experienced that too. You're not alone. And if you'd like to share your story, feel free to email me or send me a DM. And if you want to stay plugged into the real stories, real insights, and the real humans behind today's hiring system, make sure to follow and subscribe. We've got new episode shorts and conversations every week.

[00:19:29] And you can also check us out on the Roku and Fire TV with the HR channel these days. And if your organization believes in making hiring human again, which we all want, and want us to pour conversations like this, we're opening up a few sponsorship spots. So feel free to reach out. I'm Mark Lane, and this is Ghosted by the Machine because behind every application, there is a human. Let's make hiring human again. And Megan, thank you again for being with us today. Thanks so much, Mark. Thanks for all that you do.