Peter Laughter - Rethinking HR Leadership in a Complex World

[00:00:08] Welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast, now part of the WorkDefined Podcast Network. Join us as we explore the vital role of compensation, strategy, data, and people analytics in navigating today's complex business world. With the resources of WorkDefined, we're now bringing you deeper insights and actionable ideas from top experts. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

[00:00:33] David Turetsky Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky, and we always try and find you the best and brightest from inside and outside of HR. And today we have a special one. We have one of the brightest people I've ever met in my life. And for those of you who've heard him speak, oh, stop. For those of you who heard Peter Laptor speak, you know that he is a special human being, and we are lucky to have him in the world of human resources. Peter, hello.

[00:01:02] Thank you. It's really great to be here. And I always have so much fun in speaking with you, David. So, and I'm particularly looking forward to this conversation. I've had a lot of fun prepping for it. Well, yeah, and this is going to be a really fun one. But before we get to the topic, Peter, why don't you tell people what you've been working on lately? Peter Laptor Yeah. So, I really started my career as an entrepreneur in the recruiting and staffing industry. And, you know, as you know, David, recruiting is horribly broken and staffing is a little extractive.

[00:01:29] Peter Laptor And I've got a 23-year-old daughter. And I really, at the summer of 2020, I realized I need to keep my focus on helping to make the world a better place. So, you know, her horrible expectations for her future, maybe they won't be met, or at least maybe I can help in having them not be met.

[00:01:48] So, and I was really fascinated with both complexity, but most importantly, leadership. And I had seen through some really salient personal experiences and observations that command and control was failing precipitously. Peter Laptor And I started to gather some evidence toward that. And particularly in 2020, it was really clear that that crash was accelerating.

[00:02:12] And so my work now is really focused on helping leaders navigate complexity. And I do so by telling stories to have them understand we're in the water of it, right? And everything we've learned about leadership and organizational structure comes out of command and control, which is a system of leadership and organizational structure, which is wholly incompatible with the wave upon wave upon wave of complexity that's coming our way.

[00:02:39] And I think HR is uniquely positioned to create a path on the way to get you out. And by the way, we've been trying to patch that up and band-aid it with technology for how many years? For tons of years. Peter Laptor People process technology in that order. My very dear friend, Ed Hanson, taught me that. And he's right. Yeah, he's right. We think technology is a magic bullet. It's not. People with technology who really understand how to use it and can work together. That's the magic bullet.

[00:03:10] Peter Laptor Excellently way of putting it. But before we get into our topic, Peter, what's one fun thing that no one knows about you? Peter Laptor So one fun thing that people that no one knows about me is that I had a career as an anthropologist for a brief period of time.

[00:03:31] Or sorry, an archaeologist for a very brief period of time. And that led me on to anthropology and then to social work and then on my way to grad school. And then I discovered entrepreneurism. And here we are. Peter Laptor But I have to say, my work in anthropology has been probably one of the most impactful things I've done for my business career.

[00:03:53] Peter Laptor That's awesome. Yeah. And actually, there are organizations that are hiring anthropologists now to understand the human condition better so that their technologies or their techniques or their processes are actually a lot more human. Peter Laptor Yeah. Yeah. Peter Laptor That's pretty cool. Peter Laptor I like seeing that. And I've been now reconnecting with some anthropologists who I've known or new ones and really excited about their work and a little jealous. But I never would have made a good academic. That's for sure.

[00:04:22] Peter Laptor It takes somebody special and it takes a unique culture to be able to get there. Peter Laptor You know what? Peter Laptor I was never in sports as a kid, so I never knew I'm insanely competitive. Peter Laptor I was never in sports as a kid. And I think that unaddressed in a place like academia, I would have ended up like just a raging jerk. Peter Laptor There are so many really cool movies about that exact character. Peter Laptor I think Paul Giamatti was just in one. Peter Laptor Who? Peter Laptor Who? Peter Laptor Paul Giamatti was just in one.

[00:04:52] Peter Laptor Oh, I like him a lot. Peter Laptor I do too. I can't remember what the title was. Peter Laptor But he was an academic and his culture did not work in the environment which he was in. And it caused him obviously a tragic, I mean, everything Shakespearean. So it was a tragic end. Peter Laptor Yeah. Was that the one where he was in the boarding school over a break? Peter Laptor Yes. Peter Laptor Oh, that was great. I loved it. Peter Laptor Yes. Peter Laptor What an arc.

[00:05:22] Peter Laptor Yeah, that was, yeah. I think people forget that with stories is it has to be a transformation. Peter Laptor And it can't be an obvious one. Yeah. And that's the key. Peter Laptor And that's what we're going to get into in our topic today. But first, a commercial break.

[00:05:54] Peter Laptor Does work feel like a show lately? Peter Laptor That's because it is. Everything's changing. Jobs, skills, tech, expectations. And somehow you're just supposed to keep up and stay positive and not forget to fill out your 47th engagement survey. Peter Laptor I'm Rachel Bourne, host of The Shift Show, where we stop pretending work makes sense and we start figuring out how to thrive in the middle of this madness.

[00:06:17] No fluff, no buzzwords, just real talk about AI, leadership, burnout, and what the hell is actually happening at work. If you've ever thought, is it just me or did things just get weird? It's not you. It's all of us.

[00:06:33] Peter Laptor So, Peter, one of the things that we love talking about here on the HR Data Labs podcast, obviously, is data. Peter Laptor And HR is awash with a ton of really incredible data.

[00:07:00] Unfortunately, what happens is we are really terrible at the scientific method. We're terrible at trying to use that data to measure the things that we should be measuring. And people analytics really has gotten very sophisticated at measuring things. But are we really measuring the right things? And do we really understand what we're trying to accomplish?

[00:07:25] And so our topic for today is really going to talk about where you see our HR leadership going or our thought leadership going around HR and how we're utilizing this data. So my first question is, people analytics is measuring the wrong things.

[00:07:46] And if you could redesign how we fix this or how data gets measured and how data gets input, what would it look like? Yeah, so this is interesting to me because I think we're in a highly complex world and things are going to start moving really quickly. And I think it represents a unique opportunity for HR professionals. And that when you look at one of the most of the things that are being collected now,

[00:08:11] where you're looking engagement scores or turnover, absenteeism, these are really important metrics. Don't get me wrong, but we have to recognize that they measure how people feel about a broken system. What is their response to that broken system? But I think it is the system itself that needs measuring. So I think we – and I think when you look at – so 70 percent failure rate of large-scale corporate initiatives.

[00:08:40] This is something that we know. And we're in this dynamic where a leadership team or a CEO will enact a big initiative. It will go on for several years. Probably will outlast them. Yeah, and it will fail. Which they're hoping for, by the way. Hmm? Sick. They're hoping for that. They're hoping to leave before they have to pay the piper on that. Exactly. All of them.

[00:09:02] And not only that, you know, the – and if they are around when it fails, they will – in order to do the old CYA with their investors or boards, they're going to talk about reorganization, moving in a different direction, a new strategy. No one's going to mention this has failed. And so this is the shame that management teams, you know, carry on. But yet we continue saying – talking about the efficiency of business.

[00:09:30] And I think that HR can measure the things that will indicate those failures. And it is – if you look at what are the things that fail first in an issue like that, it's the human systems. So I think those are important. But also, you know, we are living in this highly complex world, right? The model of smart people at the top making all the decisions and everybody else just implementing. Right. That's not going to work anymore. And it's not working now.

[00:09:59] And I assert it hasn't been working for the last 20 years. And it's going to be catastrophic momentarily. And so measuring those things – who is in the room? Who's making decisions? How quickly are those decisions being implemented? What is the response of those decisions? I think – and those are the numbers where there's real power. Because those C-suite executives, they don't want to fail. Yeah, of course they don't. But the things that – what they've learned about how things work, that's not working. And they can't see it.

[00:10:28] One of the things that my research has brought up is something called hubris syndrome. And we're seeing this play out in many organizations right now. Certain social media companies that have just lost massive lawsuits and have a string of other lawsuits come to mind that are coming their way. Hubris syndrome is when people have been at the top of a command and control period for a period of time, the less likely they are to be able to see the world through the eyes of others.

[00:10:57] And so in this moment where – I mean, particularly the Google and Meta case, there are well-documented stories of key management team begging executives to move in another direction, giving them evidence and clear warning. Couldn't see it. They couldn't see it. And so – yeah. But Peter, don't you think that there is – especially with organizations having risk organizations built into them,

[00:11:27] don't you think there would be or should be these fail-safe measurements that say, holy shit, you're not listening to the people you should be listening to, and sending that to the board of directors and saying, we have a problem here, Houston. You know, what are we going to do about it? That makes complete sense. And that's the way it should happen. But you and I both know it's not happening that way. And I think that's – there's another dynamic that is impacting this.

[00:11:54] And it is – you know, in command and control hierarchies, information flows up, but it doesn't flow – it flows down, but it doesn't flow up. Right, right. And so – yeah. And also, there is this thing that happens in most command and control organizations where people only value the opinions and observations of those with equal or greater status. Right. And so we saw this with the Challenger disaster, right?

[00:12:24] Like who – if your mechanic said, hey, man, if it gets cold out, your car is going to blow up. Right. You would do something about it. But the NASA executives or the political appointees were concerned with launch windows and all sorts of things that had nothing to do with safety. And so they devalued the observations of those who knew best. And we see this all the time. That's just the most example – dramatic example that I can come up with. So those things are there.

[00:12:53] But the problem is, is where they're looking, it's not the right places to get that information. And they're looking at that risk from their perspective, from the roadmap in the beginning. Right. But, you know, Mike Tyson, what is it? Everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the nose? Yeah. People are getting punched in the nose, but by the time it gets to the top, it's too late. And that's the issue. But there's also problems where people fear rejecting what the leaders say.

[00:13:23] They think that the leaders are this mythical creature you can't disagree with. Or they're people who you can't tell the truth to. Because if it's not their version of the truth, you could get fired for it. I know I've been in executive meetings with leaders of my companies before. And I've said things. And they look at me like I had three heads. But I came from a position, like you're saying, of understanding and knowledge. I told them the truth. I told them my truth the way I saw it and the way an expert sees it.

[00:13:53] And they would reject it and say, well, you're just this little person. And so I'm going to reject what you said and do what I want anyways. And that's that dynamic. The only valid points are those with equal or greatest status. And I think that that is a structural problem that and one of the many pieces of evidence that I point to that says command and control is just incapable of surviving the time we have just entered.

[00:14:17] And I think, honestly, this year is when we're going to start to see some really dramatic failures of large institutions. Even if you look at things like, and I'm not going to get political here, but the military, where the military has a code of conduct. If your boss in the military tells you to do something wrong, you can actually tell them no. That's actually military law.

[00:14:41] But if if they say you're getting course marshaled for it, you know, what's what's that person going to do? Right. They're going to lose their livelihood. They're going to lose their pension. They may lose their lives because they may get shot from disobeying. But, you know, Peter, you're not going to lose or hopefully you won't lose your life if you disobey a command in a company. But, you know, you're saying the paradigm is is fading, but we still see it in so much of the world as much as, you know, in the U.S. corporations.

[00:15:12] Very much so. So I really don't know about foreign militaries, but I know the U.S. military is actually quite a can be quite a distributed organization because this concept of of commander's intent. You understand commander's intent. We don't care how you get there as long as you follow the intent. And this was really brilliantly illustrated by General Stanley McChrystal during in his team of team concepts. He recognized that, oh, wait, this this is moving too fast. People are hoarding resources because they're in silos.

[00:15:41] So he made connections through silos. He brought people together constantly and allowed for very, very significant allocation of resources decisions to be made at the point of action. And and then David Marquette, who wrote the book, Turn the Ship Around, he created frameworks for people to be able to lead in the moment. Yeah, it wasn't a concept of can I do this? Do I have the permission to do this? These are the things that I need to be able to answer and defend in order to make this decision.

[00:16:11] And he did it very subtly. He didn't demand it. He just started asking the questions consistently. And over time, people learn the questions and started coming to him with the answers. It was that simple. Yeah. So these are paradigms that are not foreign to how things work. In corporate America, they're a little bit foreign, but that's where I was going to. Yeah, that's where I was prompting you, because, you know, we we have grown up in this world. Me, certainly. I started my career in the 80s.

[00:16:39] We certainly grew up in the world where you reported to somebody who reported somebody reported somebody and you never talked over your level of never reporting relationship. You know, God forbid you went over you went over someone's head. It was a career limiting move. And now we're in an era of democratizing data and democratizing information. And now it's a little different, right? This was a really important lesson to me in my very first job. And I'll never forget it.

[00:17:08] We had two supervisors who were very accessible and then a boss who was, you know, on a different floor. And I can't remember. A different floor that says something, by the way. And there was a higher floor, wasn't it? We were in the basement. So there's no where to go but up, Peter. There you go. But I can't remember what it was. But someone was like, Andrea's mad at you for X, Y and Z. And I was like, okay, well, I'll go talk to her.

[00:17:38] And it was like I just said, I'm going to put a grenade in a turkey and put it in the microwave. Like everyone was like, what? You're going to talk to her? And I had grown up in a Quaker school. And so, like, my relationship with my teachers was very egalitarian. And it was incredible, incredible just advantage that I had over my peers. But I'll never forget the look on their face. Like you were going to talk to the monster? She might kill you. Yeah.

[00:18:08] It's just like. Well, and I've seen that in my career too. Like I said, I was sitting in executive meetings and I told the CEO, you're wrong. And people thought I was crazy. What did the CEO think? That's why I said. I told him what I thought my truth was. And he said, I hear you, but I reject your opinion. But he respected it though. He and I had conversations later going, wow, you had real cojones to say that, you know, in that meeting. And I was like, well, but it's the truth.

[00:18:37] And he said, yeah, but nobody else would have had those stones to do that. But there's another dynamic that I'm noticing. And this is something that I've been noticing in the distributed leadership community as well as that. And in myself is that as leaders, the view that we have of ourselves is created and solidified before we were leaders. So we have this idea. We took our examples. I'm so approachable. Anyone can say anything to me. And maybe that's kind of true.

[00:19:05] But really what happens is they might say it, but no one's going to believe it or they're not going to act on it. They're not going to really dig deeper if it's contrary to their worldview. But also what they don't know is the view of themselves has changed dramatically. And they have not adopted to that change. And so that's something that I find pretty fascinating. Could you imagine a world in which we couldn't challenge leadership? I can't because that's not how I was raised. I was raised very much like you.

[00:19:35] I'm not necessarily an egalitarian, but I had teachers who challenged me to challenge them. Yes. To say, what's your opinion? Talk up. Speak. Especially in college. You know, I was that person at the front of the class who raised their hand all the time to say, wait a minute, that doesn't make any sense. I don't think what, you know, and they would be like, well, yeah, it's written in the textbook, so it's got to be right. So, but at least somebody spoke up and that somebody was always me. You and I were equally despised by our fellow classmates.

[00:20:05] They hated us. But some of the professors really liked it. I think that was the joy. Yeah. Well, because we didn't make it boring. We didn't just answer the question. We said, yeah, I understand it. And here, I'm going to put it back to you. And why doesn't this make sense? And they were like, wow, no one's ever said that before. That's, I like that. Let's keep going on that. But I have to teach the class. Well, yeah. And it's also, incidentally, one of the reasons why I became an entrepreneur at 24.

[00:20:35] Because I'm essentially unemployable. Yeah. I don't think, yeah, well, yeah. I think. I got there at 59, but there you go. Yeah. You were probably a little bit more capable of navigating those waters than I was, I think. No, but I'm unemployable now. That's why I'm an entrepreneur. It's not a bad thing. Yeah. It isn't. It isn't. It isn't. Things happen for a reason. And what a time to be an entrepreneur. My goodness. Oh, absolutely. Well, I love it.

[00:21:03] Well, I also, the last time was during COVID. Yeah. But let's go to the second question because, you know, we're going to expand on you being an entrepreneur. And, you know, in the recruiting and staffing industry, you had an opportunity to, like, really look at some of the most sophisticated organizations in the world or in the country, depending upon your lens. What did it look like when you saw that command and control is failing?

[00:21:30] And why were leaders too slow to actually see it from your perspective? Because obviously we talked about you having a completely different perspective than a lot of other people. Well, so I think that's a big question. But I think the first thing, and I remember we had clawed our way into JP Morgan. And it was early. It was the first big deal that I was able to bring in. And I remember we sent a, you know, early 90s. We sent a FedEx to the CEO's office.

[00:22:00] And I would call the CEO's office. You could actually do that back then. I just want to confirm that the FedEx I sent, which, you know, received. And then I would say, great. Can you tell me the name of the senior most person in human resources that Mrs. CEO would forward that letter to? And then I would call that person's office. And I said, I just got off the phone with Mrs. CEO's office. The assistant would hear Mrs. CEO. And I would work it down. So I got down to the right person. That was brilliant, Peter.

[00:22:30] It was. And so that's how I was able to get in. Because these people wouldn't, everyone was calling them, you know, 12 times a week. I remember actually one of the women we got to said, you realize you were the 12th person who's called me with the same message today or something like that. I was like, I got to try something else because this is not going to work. But you learned from that. I did. I did. But in that environment, we did really well.

[00:22:59] We became their largest supplier. We blew out a national supplier within a year. And we were doing great. Life was good. And then they went out to RFP for a master vendor contract. And it made no sense to me. I was like, sure, you get one vendor and one source of information. But you have no choice, you know, in that scenario. It just, it seemed so horrible for them.

[00:23:24] And like, I know if I had a client who had to use my service, I would probably get a little lazy. So, you know, it didn't make sense. But when I looked at it, I realized, oh, wait, they sent me a report of how much they purchased from us. And it was probably 40 percent below the actual number. So they don't know. They have no single source of reporting. You know, there's huge risk.

[00:23:53] And so I realized that the things that they most need, quality people, were superseded by all sorts of logistical reporting, compliance issues. And so I think that just to understand, and this is 20 years ago, but the complexity of the demands of a large organization are so much that it really, really muddies the water for people to understand.

[00:24:15] And two, I think we have to look at our system of command and control was designed in a time where sovereigns were the only people who were literate. They were only people who had access to information. And they had to manage peasants who were literate and keep them from planting the wrong crops and starving the entire community. And now we've got this magical device in our pocket that has a camera and a flashlight. In our pocket, on our wrist, in our ears.

[00:24:44] The entire compendium of human knowledge. So the need for that level of control is gone, yet our systems have not adapted. Neither have our cultures, though, because there are people who love strong leaders. There are people who love monarchs. There are people who want dictatorships because that allows them not to think. It allows them to feel comfortable, even in a corporation. So I'm going to push back on that a little bit because I think I agree with you.

[00:25:14] I agree with you. On uncertainty, people want just an answer. But I wonder if it's that we don't have the ability to find the answers, nor do we have the structures to come together and work within small communities to solve the problems that individuals are facing. And I think that is the time we are moving into.

[00:25:34] And I think that's what these magical tools that have been developed in just the last two years are giving people like me the ability to create anything. Right. And so I think we're going to start to see that shifting very, very quickly. But I think and especially around the topic we're talking about about data, I think there are people who, you know, take your point from before that are not literate on technology. They don't trust Google.

[00:26:04] They don't trust the answers that they're that are true. They look for alternative facts. And that provides an intense disrespect or distrust of technology. And so there is a I would say it's a growing population in the U.S., especially in rural New York or sorry, rural America, not just rural New York. That only rural New York. Rural America. I've got to figure it out. The rest of the country is good. But no, I live in rural New York.

[00:26:32] But my point is that I think that there is a growing unhappiness and uncertainty with the answers that they're getting. And thus they look for their leader. To give them what the answer is, even if it's flies in the face, flying in the face of of the truth. Sorry, that sounds a lot of political in there. Well, I think I think you're right.

[00:26:55] But I think that the reason for that is very complex and would we would be here for about two hours if we were to dig too deeply into that. But I do think it's I do believe a lot of it's structural. And I think that that. Yeah. And what we're I think is. Is a symptom of those structural failures that have been manipulated, that have been manipulated by many of.

[00:27:22] Of I think those seeds of distress have been very purposefully sown in order to maintain a power structure that is no longer serving any of us, even the people who are maintaining it. Truth be told. And when they realize that they're going to be pissed. I actually I think the comeuppance is coming faster than people might think. Let's pray. Let's pray.

[00:27:46] But going back to the conversation around, you know, the leaders walking this slowly and being able to react more slowly to change. Is there a way we can get there utilizing the technologies that we're swimming in today? Definitely. Definitely. However, so I think I think for larger corporations, it's going to be slower and it's going to come from different places.

[00:28:13] So I talk about distributed leadership organizations that push power and authority to the furthest reaches of those organizations. And there's plenty of organizations that do it. And the benefits are tremendous. 40 percent up to 40 percent lower overhead. You know, dramatically increased ability to take on market share. I mean, one company that I that I profiled, Brutzug, they were a home health aid company.

[00:28:40] I mean, they achieved a 70 percent market share in a highly regulated market in about 12 years and with numbers across the board. And my my dear friend, Greg Sattel, who wrote a book called Cascades, was as I was starting my research, kept saying, well, Peter, if these companies are so great, why aren't more companies doing it? And I think, you know, it flies in the face of our understanding of leadership. Everything we know about leadership comes from command and control.

[00:29:05] And so something that I get all the time when I speak about distributed leadership is people are, well, who makes the decision? Well, people use frameworks to make a decision. They they they they they look at those frameworks together and they consider things that they one person can could not possibly see by themselves. They they use those frameworks to come to the inevitable conclusion of what to do. And it's actually not that complex. But the way we are thinking, oh, well, we grew up and mommy or daddy make all the decisions. And then the captain of the soccer team makes all the decision or a coach.

[00:29:34] Yeah. And so this is we're just trained this way. But there are organizations that are emerging. And look at the company Valve. I'm not a gamer. Sometimes I wish I were. But I mean, ridiculously profitable. I think they have 400 people. There's like over a billion dollars. I don't know, four billion in revenue. I mean, it's ridiculous. You know, and what's more, their their handbooks says something like we've been manager free since 1997. Welcome to flat.

[00:30:01] Yeah. And but, you know, you've got talented people who are literally willing to run through brick walls to be a part of that. And, you know, and, you know, and there's so many examples of this. And so I think the technology that we have will better facilitate decision making, communications, the adherence to these frameworks, the use of decision making tools. And I think that that is the magic we're going to. And particularly right.

[00:30:29] And on the flip side, this next year, we're going to see hordes of people who are ejected from Fortune 500 from this mistaken ability that AI can replace them. They can't. Yeah. And if anyone who has ever built a, you know, an AI automation or a bot knows that it is a constant iterative process. And it's the iteration that makes it magical. It's like, oh, this thing could be a little better.

[00:30:59] Let's make it better. And so when you get rid of the people who have that domain knowledge, who have that experience, then you're losing out on the benefits. Our systems never are frozen in time. And those people they are ejecting. Let's remember, those same people will have access to these same magical tools. Right. You know, for a 20 or a 20. And you're going to come back and beat the crap out of you. Beat the crap out of them. And that is where the change is going to come from. I look at, you know, something I call the Deming effect.

[00:31:28] And Deming was the father of total quality management. He saw that American manufacturers were producing absolutely horrible quality. And, yeah, they had employees who were underutilized and miserable and bored. And he's like, hey, I can fix this. I can totally fix this. Let's look at data. Let's empower our employees to understand the data and make changes. And the American manufacturers, like everybody's buying our crappy products. They have no choice. Pound sand.

[00:31:55] And then MacArthur brought them to Japan to help rebuild the Japanese manufacturing ecosystem. And the Japanese manufacturers loved what he had to say. It fit very nicely with their existing philosophies. They took on total quality management. They modified it for their cultures. And then we all know what happens. They came back to the American shores and kicked the crap out of us. And suddenly the American manufacturers were like, Edwards, could you show us that total quality management stuff again?

[00:32:24] Because I think maybe you were right. Maybe. I don't know. Possibly. Oh, they would never have said that, though, Peter. They would never have said you're right. They would have said, let's take a look at it. Let's just take a look at this. It couldn't hurt. Right. Exactly. But I think Deming used market forces to create mass market change. And that's the Deming effect. And we're seeing this right now. There's going to be an increase of companies who are operating on this level.

[00:32:49] Because, I mean, just look, if you Google, what are the common words that people use to describe corporate America? I don't know if solace is going to be number one, two, or three. It should be. But, you know, and so I think that, but, you know, so all of these people, they don't want that. And they're hungry for something different. Right. And now we have the ability to learn pretty much anything, you know, very quickly. So I think we're going to start to see these changes happen very rapidly.

[00:33:18] And I think they're going to actually start to happen this year. How do we measure that, though, Peter? Because that is something that should be measurable. We should be able to see ethos in numbers, like flocking to companies that have that kind of culture and ethos that provide employees and employers, actually, with the freedom to innovate based on democratizing decisions. Well, I think we need to be aware of the problems first.

[00:33:46] So I think really looking at, so we look at disengagement as an aggregate for an organization. But really, like, how do we measure spikes and disengagements who are at the point of the spear with our implementation? So that's a start. And I think it's something that HR professionals can really lean into to gain the power that they need in order to make this change. Because I think HR is the only place within corporate America that this change can happen.

[00:34:13] But really pointing to that, where HR can say, hey, we've got this billion-dollar initiative. And the people that produce here are pissed. And they're disengaged. They're upset. There's something wrong here. They have the access. So zeroing in on that access. And then looking at things like communication patterns, decision velocity. We have the data for this, right? We have great tools for who's communicating with who, who's in the room. Qualtrics did that a long time ago, didn't they? Which company? Qualtrics? Yes.

[00:34:43] There's a lot of organizations that do it. And so I think that this is very, very possible in order to be able to see this. How are we moving? Are issues that are being brought up at the point of the spear, are they making it their way back? And are they to leadership? And are they being acted upon? These are the metrics that I think will be very, very valuable. You know, is frontline sentiment diverging sharply from, you know, the project goals? Well, this is something that's very important.

[00:35:12] And then, you know, we have to recognize this hidden number, you know, 70% failure rate of large projects. HR has the data. They have the understanding. They have the relationships to be able to point to it. And to create a story that puts this fear of shame, this, I hope that I can get another job before the, you know, the muck hit the fan. But, yeah, that hits the fan, yeah.

[00:35:42] Being able to give those people like, hey, I got your back. I can show you where this is going to hit the fan and what we need to do to avoid it. And this is where HR can move from reacting to being actually putting themselves in the frontline, which is where I really think they need to be. Well, I have an example of that. Zoe Schweitzer from Jenny's Ice Cream, Jenny's Ice Cream, I think they're called.

[00:36:09] She's one example of a CHRO who does go to each of the stores and who listens to the people who are on the front lines, the people, you know, store front. And I imagine the store back as well. And listens to them about the things they see. And she gathers it together and she translates it to what does this mean for leadership? What does this mean for the company? So she's one example of where I think what you're talking about actually is happening today. But I think it's Jenny's ethos. I think that's part of the corporate ethos of their company.

[00:36:40] And I think that's an important distinction. But I think someone has to make it the ethos before the ship hits the iceberg. Of course. Insight and they have enough clout to be able to be that person. And I think that's what's really exciting about this time. Yeah, because the leaders and the funny thing is in the non-Jenny's Ice Cream type organization, the leaders think they are. Yes. And guess who has the data that they're not? It's HR.

[00:37:10] Yes. Peter, I could talk about this forever, but we're about out of time. And I got to tell you, every time I talk to you, first of all, I get excited about the topic. But second of all, I learn so much. And I really appreciate you being here. It is always so much fun. I really, really enjoy it. And so we'll have to have you back on soon to talk about something else. But I'll give you some time so we can recover from this conversation. Well, I'm rooting for my HR friends.

[00:37:38] I think if anyone can save the day. I think just to end, you know, this is, I really, if we, the lifespan of a company on the S&P index used to be like something like 52 years. It's, you know, in 2015, it went down to, I think, 18 years as expected. By the end of next year, it should go down to 12. I think that is a grossly optimistic estimate. And I think we're going to start to see it this year.

[00:38:04] Especially with the variance in the economy and how different leadership has not reacted well to new patterns. So, yeah, I'm with you. May you live in exciting times. That's a curse, Peter. That's the curse. It's a curse we're in. But hey, we've got to make sure. Yes, that is true. That is definitely true. Peter, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, David. And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

[00:38:32] Thank you for listening to the HR Datalabs podcast. Don't forget to hit subscribe and share it with your network. You can also check out the recordings on Spotify or the HR channel, now on Roku and Fire TV. Thank you. Take care and stay safe.