Live from World at Work Total Rewards 2026 with Special Guest Amy Dufrane

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_02] Welcome everyone to a special episode of the HR & Payroll 2.0 podcast. I'm Pete Tiliakos and we are live from the World at Work Total Rewards event here in rainy San Antonio, Texas. And as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome, Julie.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much, Pete. And I'm really excited for our next guest because I don't think we've had anything at all like Amy on before. So how about you do the honors?

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So we have Dr. Amy Wang. She is the CEO of the HR Certification Institute, and I'm excited to have her join HR in Payroll 2.0. So welcome.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01] Super. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Is this your first World at Work or have you been here before?

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01] It is. It is my first World at Work. And to have this collab with World at Work, between us and HRCI and World at Work, it's awesome.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So what is that? What are you guys doing? What's the collaboration you're doing?

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01] So we have a track specifically for HR professionals, but we also have a lot of people from TR coming in, too. Nice. So I feel like we're, you know, welcoming people from both sides to learn from each other. And we've got a lot of folks who are talking specifically about HR. We just talked about our state of HR report for 2026 and great discussion. And we're glad to be here.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, we're glad to have you. Thank you. That's excellent. So, you know, for those that are scoring at home, tell us who the HRCI is and what differentiates, you say, from SHRM or any of the other, you know, organizations that are out there.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So HRCI has been around for about 55 years. We began as a certification body and we have evolved to much more than that. We are career partners for the HR professional. We have learning for the profession. We have a webinar series that we began during COVID and it's exploded. So we've got several thousand folks that join us every week for what's going on in HR.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01] We have learning for, you know, soup to nuts of HR that we have offered. And we are we play a really unique role globally. We are part of the World Federation of People Management Associations. So HRCI is uniquely positioned to collaborate around the globe with HR professionals who are interested in the same thing that we are.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01] And then as part of sort of our global outreach, we are the secretariat for what's known as TC260 under the ISO umbrella. So I'll unpack that a little bit. So ISO is the International Standards Organization. And there are technical committees that set standards for everything from our the plugs that we plug, you know, into to risk to everything. And there's one for HR.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01] So we are leading that effort globally. We've added continents since we have taken this on. And we are publishing standards that are relevant to the profession, particularly as we go global. We want to make sure that the lexicon that we're using everywhere is the same. Yes. And particularly with people, right? So to have that common language that we speak from, it's so important. So we lead that effort.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01] In fact, we'll be having a grouping, a collaboration in September. So we'll be writing more standards then, publishing more standards and really finding out what is going on around the world globally.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, absolutely. I love that because a lot of the associations, whether it's, I mean, even in payroll and in HR, it's largely like sort of centered around local geographies. But you're saying you guys are broadly global. Right.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01] So our certifications are.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02] That's something we lack in payroll, I feel like.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's hard, right? You've got the alphabet soup of HR in the U.S. That is a challenge for all of us to have to figure out what does that mean and what does that look like. And it's that way everywhere. But we're hiring people all over the planet.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01] So how do we make sure that we're, you know, having the same sort of lexicon and the same standards for everywhere? Yeah. And obviously there are rules that are different and countries that have specific needs versus others. But if we can all start talking together, that's the first step in sort of, you know, that knowledge is power thing. Like how do we do this?

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. And there's no better community, I say, than HR and payroll. I mean, everybody rallies around each other and they're starving for that community. I hear that. You know, I think the vendors that are, I do a lot in the vendor side. And when I see the vendors that are really winning with their customers, generally there's a really strong community that they've curated and they're leaned into. And the customers have leaned into as well because they're starving for that knowledge and transfer and sharing.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00] So, Amy, I want to ask a dumb question. Go back just a minute to the taxonomy, right? And the work that you're doing there. Is payroll a part of HR and the HR taxonomy? Are there, is benefit? Like what are there, is there anything that surprisingly is included or excluded in that?

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01] We include everything, but we're very general in our approach. So we encourage people, go deeper in a place like World at Work, go deeper into compensation. If you're really interested in sort of that's a focus of yours for that particular year, go deep. Try to, you know, learn everything you can from there. The same with payroll. Yeah. A hundred years ago, I used to, you know, do payroll and it's very complex.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01] And as we have people who are working even in the United States in different states, that's just a major, I mean, you all know it's a major headache to make sure that you're trying to maintain compliance in all the different facets of state law. Yeah.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00] So it would be included. Everything's in there. It's just a matter of how deep do you go if you really care to be specialized, right? That's right.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Amy, how did you get into this wacky world of HR? I know. Why are you still here?

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01] I love, I love this. Yeah. I have been so passionate about this. So I did an internship, you know, a million years ago after I graduated from college or in college and one facet was HR and fell in love with it. Wonderful. And that was how I said, they said, you know, we have an opening. Yeah. Do you want to come and work here? And of course, so I said, yes. At that time, jobs were, you know, hard to come by. And I said, sign me up. I'm game.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01] Nice. And there was seven of us in HR and we shared one computer, one of which we did payroll on. Right. So, and, and we had a really super complex compensation structure. So I had to explain to people, what is a draw versus commission? What does this mean? How come you're not getting any of your commission? What does that look like? It's so that's, I started, you know, rolled up my sleeves right at the bottom. Right. And I, so I've been in the trenches.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01] I, I know how hard it is, but I know how rewarding it is. Yeah. And it's such an awesome profession. And it's changed so much. Right.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. What keeps you with us?

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, there's always something different.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02] It's never the same day.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01] Never, never. And that's what's so enjoyable about it. So you can't, you know, you, you just have the opportunity to learn so much. I, you know, I feel like, okay, I've achieved it. Nope. Nope. Not today.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02] So did you start your in more of in payroll or in comp or?

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01] No, it was just a very general, generalist, but payroll was in it. Compensation was in it. We did everything. It was soup to nuts. I mean.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02] What are your thoughts on where payroll belongs just in terms of, of this? I mean, I'm not where it reports because I think we've, you've debated that ad nauseum depending upon the company. Sure. But like, what are your thoughts around payroll being at the table, so to speak? Right. The, you know, the, the, the rhetorical pay table that we're all trying to get to. But like, I believe that there needs to be a deeper integration. And I don't just mean technically. I mean, just strategically of payroll HR with the business to helping them facilitate, you know, strategic outcomes. But what are your thoughts on that?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02] Where, where do you feel about it?

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I think that payroll is where you really start putting numbers behind the people and you really can determine from what, what those numbers say, where are you as a business? So if you've got, you know, it, it drives from a commission perspective, how, how are you, how are your sales? What does that look like? What if you're launching a new initiative and you're not incentivizing that?

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01] Is, are you thinking about the right things as a business? So I think it, there should be a deep integration between the payroll component of the business and that ROI.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. The compliance element too, right? I mean, they don't, the business doesn't know what it doesn't know.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01] That's right.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, tripping along that path, you, you want the business to sprint, not, not creep and be, you know, let payroll be the eyes watching out for things, I think. And I don't know if people, I don't know if C-suites connect the dots on payroll for that. I think they look at it as purely this process, but they don't look at it and say, well, wow, it's an, you know, huge part of our employee experience, but also it's a big part of us being able to actually execute on strategy confidently.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00] Well, and look, realistically, HR has had that same conversation themselves. Like, how do we get a seat at the table? So that's right. You know, it's a, it's a common problem, whether they're one in the same or each trying to get to the table. Yeah. That's right.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02] I've been, interestingly, have been studying the credential world. I happen to have worked with a, a, a, a ed tech firm who is modernizing the experience for, for learners, both, both learning, but also taking their, their credential tests and, you know, that the validity of that and the trust in, in that being, being, um, you know, not, uh, what would I call it? At risk of, you know, nefariousness. Right. And making sure that the credential is, is, um, is respected. Um, and there's a lot going on there.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02] It reminds me a lot of what we're going through in HR, right? There's a lot of slow movement and changing, but like what's changing with HR specific industry specific learning and how is HRIC, yeah, HRCI, uh, enabling that?

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01] Right. So I think we're really trying to meet people where they are from a learning perspective and not only are the topics changing exponentially. I mean, we're right now, we have several certificates around certificates around AI, um, because, you know, everybody is trying to learn everything they possibly can, um, about what this means. How do I practically use it in my business? What can this mean for me?

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01] And how do I think about my company when I integrate AI? What does that look like? And how do I need to be thinking differently? So I think there's this whole emergence in, um, job redesign, organizational redesign, and sort of looking at people's skills. What are we missing and how do we need to upskill people in order to meet those different strategic efforts? I know this is a little bit off of sort of the learning piece, but I think that this

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01] from a topical perspective is exactly where, um, we see people wanting to dig in and they want really tangible examples as to what companies have done. Because I think companies are still arguing about what AI is.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01] What does this mean? What, haven't we already been using this or, you know, so I think there's sort of this, you know, inward facing discussion that organizations are, are doing. And in fact, I'm seeing that from discussions that I'm having, um, with CEOs kind of around the globe, but I think we're also seeing learning shift. So the traditional ways that people have learned are now modifying them. Right.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01] And I think, um, people are looking for those hands-on ways to learn how to do things. Um, I just read a book about, um, turning machines on and written by Zach, uh, Inger, Albert. Oh, now I'm, now I've lost the class. Now I messed it up. But you can Google it. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's a great book that is full of some content, but also hands-on. How do you utilize AI within your business?

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01] What are those prompts that you can put in that can help you as an HR person to drive value to your company? So I think it's a really interesting, you know, it's that hands-on with a little bit of book knowledge and it's hard because even book knowledge is, you know, quickly, rapidly evolving. So I think it's, we're seeing the shifts happen all over the place with all sorts of things.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02] Just, just thinking about that, we've debated this, you know, I mean, you guys are in the business of credentials. I know you do more than that, but like what happens to those credentials if we're all equally now have AI and the knowledge of compliance and rules and all of that? Like, what are you guys doing from a business perspective? Like, are you seeing certificates, certifications rise, shrink? What do you, what's going on there? Yeah.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01] I think people are looking for ways to quickly differentiate themselves. Right. So when the economy gets tougher and people are really looking for, you know, what's next for me? Yeah. They're looking for that differentiation component. And so certificates and certifications are always ways to do that. Certifications take longer. It is more of a, you know, we encourage people three to six months to prepare. Yeah. Go through the process, collaborate with your colleagues, talk to them about how, how they're

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01] preparing, but certificates are quicker, right? It's a quick way to differentiate yourself, go deep into something and you can pop back out and you don't have to, with certification, you have to recertify every three years. So there's a whole commitment to the business, but it also, I think in our research that we've done, we've done longitudinal research for decades on the value of certification. We know that people that get certified are better at their business. They're more passionate about what they do.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01] Their supervisors are saying they know their stuff and they're happier in their jobs because they're confident in what they're doing. So it's not just HR certification. This can apply to any number, world at work certification, payroll certification. So it's just, it gives you that confidence. And then you've got to continuous, you know, invest in the continuous learning, which is

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01] important because people that continue to invest in themselves will see that ROI personally. So I think it's a good, it's a good marker of that. And we've seen certifications, you know, kind of go up and down. We know in higher education, they're seeing more of a surgence in certificate programs because they are faster than a graduate program or an undergraduate program. So you can quickly.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01] Right, right. Or you can expand if it's something, you know, sort of outside of what you were thinking about. You can kind of expand and go a little bit deeper into what that topic is.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yep, yep.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00] I would think just with all of the scrutiny now that is being applied to a college education in general, that you would find a lot of popularity, rising popularity in certificate programs because it has gotten so expensive. It's, I mean, it's under fire right now for bringing the value.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02] Well, there are a much more, I would say, immediate path to skills than maybe your degree would be, right? I mean, not that you don't get skills in there.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00] And more telling, right? Two years of general ed as part of a bigger degree doesn't tell you an employer anything about what I've learned and where I've got some experience or something under my belt.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01] True, true. We just hosted a session and we were talking about this. So we talked about sort of that critical thinking component that we're not seeing in sort of the incoming, you know, kind of rising to the employer forefront student. So how do we help that student with that critical thinking? What does that look like?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01] How can higher ed sort of open that aperture and help to get that sort of skill for somebody to learn and grow and change? And because that is a component as we're using AI, we need to critically think about what it is that we're seeing. Is this really real?

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01] Or do I need to dig deeper into this because something doesn't make sense? And so we were talking about that in one of our sessions, which was really an interesting sort of, and I encouraged people, you know, there's how there were, I don't know, 70 people in the room. And I said, you know what? Everyone here, if you went to your alma mater and you volunteered in their school of business, they all have advisory boards. We all as employers should be speaking very loudly about this.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01] I sit on several of those with several large universities and I'm helping them to sort of, like, these are the things that you need to be thinking about from the perspective of those students that are the product of what you're selling.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00] I'm curious too, just to know, I mean, there are industries that require continuous learning. That's right. And yours is one of those organizations that would put forth some of that. And then there are other industries who surprisingly don't. And I laugh because my stepson, you know, was not a fan of school, let's just say, and academics. And at graduation, he was like, I will never have to take another test or do another thing. And he is a police officer. Oh, he's probably always been.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00] He does more schooling than any human I know for, you know, continuous training. And I just thought, that is crazy because there's a lot of other places where you don't ever have to do continuous learning. So is that like a whole process or how do you get a whole industry to buy into saying we need?

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02] Well, hell, it's always changing, right? Our world is a moving target chronically. You know, for payroll and HR, every day it's a different new thing. Oh, new directive, you know. That's right. Yeah. Insane.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01] Something else or something that it's sort of like, oh, this is common. Everybody does this. And then, nope, we're not doing that anymore. Wait, wait, what does that mean now? How are we going to shift and modify? And how do we sort of pivot around what that looks like? Yeah.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know, one of the things that Julie and I have talked about on our show a lot is just this bleeding of talent that we have in HR and payroll that is going out. I mean, it's across all industries. Right. It's leaving the sector. And our world has never been a first stop for people when it comes to finding their next career. They're generally, like you said, they needed a job, so they landed in HR and payroll. But no one's like, oh, I'm going to be an HR manager someday. I've got all these aspirations. How do we get people?

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02] Are you guys looking at that as a responsibility to say we've got to bring the next generation in sooner and start to credential them? Are you guys doing anything in that regard?

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. So we started several years ago a certification. It's called the APHR. So it's the Associate Professional and Human Resources. There are no requirements for somebody to take that credential.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, because historically the others, you kind of had to be sponsored, so to speak. That's right.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01] You had to have experience. Work experience, yeah. And, you know, you found it a lot more challenging to be successful without any sort of strategic experience, for example, for the SPHR. But for the APHR, there's none. And so you can really get what is HR from, you know, everything that comprises HR. You get an understanding of that. You can see the facets of that. And we're partnering with colleges and universities because we have this certification.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm saying we can, your students can leave with not only a degree, but a certification that's recognized by employers.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02] A skillable, yeah.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01] Which is amazing. Employable skillish. Right. And so their colleges and universities are thrilled with this. Yeah. Because they know that students need more than just a degree.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01] They've got to have that internship. They've got to have that network in order to really show to the universe that they know what HR looks like. You don't have to have every answer. That's not what this is. Right. It is opening your eyes to what are the important components from an HR perspective that you need to really be paying attention to. And then it gives them like a beginning of a career path. Yeah. You know, is payroll my thing? Is that my zone of genius?

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01] Or do I really enjoy, you know, the benefits component? Yeah. So it really helps to guide students or people that are looking to shift over into HR because we see a lot of people who are office managers who are kind of handed off the role of, you know, filling out the I-9s and the W-4s. And people go, what is this? I don't even know what this all is supposed to mean. So we found that to be really helpful for people who are looking to break into HR.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00] Is there some world in which that also hits the high school levels, like where they start doing some of those? I sit on a school board and I just think like there's some programs I think we could do without. Yeah. Then there are some programs that I think we could really use.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01] Exactly. I was at one of my daughter's college fairs or high school fairs. So she was a freshman coming in and the American Management Association was there saying, you need to get certified. We have a management course and you can get certified.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01] So it's brilliant that even high schools are seeing that now that we've got to sort of give people ideas because if you're only, you know, if you see that your parent only does one thing, you may not have an idea about what are the other career opportunities that are out there.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think it would be so opportune because there's been this stigma for a while now that from there you go to college. And not, you know, I think we've recognized as a society we've maybe overplayed that card. And, you know, and not everybody needs to go to college to be successful. But what else is there if all you have is auto body or, you know, like nursing and this handful of things? You really need more diversity of thought and options.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02] I really like that apprenticeships are kind of coming back. They are. They're making a comeback. And I think that's great because we've got a lot of skilled trades that are folks that are that are retiring and their children don't want to take over the family business. And you've got a lot of opportunity there for people who are investing and have the right skilled person to put into it. But there's a lack of skill. But I was just talking, for example, the other day to the head of payroll at Polo and he has an apprentice and he's working with her. I think it was her to do just that succession, like to teach and bring along.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02] And someone who hadn't I don't believe much or any background, I believe, out of college. And I think that's really, really cool. We need more of that, I think, in HR and payroll and all probably sectors.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And I think Germany has really done a lovely job at trying to get people into sort of these trades earlier, whether it be, you know, hands on trades or something else. But giving the next generation sort of what are the options that are in front of you?

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. What are some of the things that are coming out? Have you guys noticed any trends like as people are getting more curious and starving for AI knowledge? What are some of the things around that are spawning requests for learning? For example, I would imagine change management might be coming up or are there any other areas around sort of adjacencies where you're like, oh, this is going to be key. And you're starting to kind of go down that path from a learning perspective.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01] We're seeing organizational design. OK. Something that's really important. Yeah. And job redesign. Yeah. So both of those, I kind of see them as hand in glove. Yeah. Because you've got to really look at those jobs, not only the jobs that you need right now, but what's your what is your strategy? How does that how is what you want to do? How are you going to align your talent around that? And what is the talent that you have right now?

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01] Are there some hidden skills that you have within your organizations that you haven't tapped yet and that you should be pulling in? And or and both. You've got to look at sort of upskilling the talent that you've got, because we've all been through these sort of changes of technology. And when it happens and employers put on there, we need somebody with 10 years of AI experience. And you're like, yeah, no one. Zero.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01] Zero. So we need to train those folks for the future and get them ready for what's next. So we're seeing that, you know, sort of job redesign and organizational redesign. So that's something that hasn't really it's been part of HR for a long time, but I would say more quiet.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02] And now I think it's a remember, though, back in the day, that was the degree in HR. You had a degree in HR. You were like, yeah, industrial psychology and all that stuff. Yeah. Human development. It was like it wasn't an HR management. I have an HR management.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00] Then it became all about org charts. Right. So like, oh, we have to get org charts. Then that goes into software. And it's like, no, this is a whole different thing right now.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02] We're going full circle now with AI. So, yeah. How about change management? Are you seeing a lot of need for it? That's always been there.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01] Always. I think that will never change because I think that, you know, we see innovation and change as constant. And if you're not keeping your organization apprised of sort of these new innovations that are coming along, you will die. Period.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02] But historically, HR has been really bad at it. Like they think they're good, but they're not. It's like you need help.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00] I think the same about project management. You know, like you feel like it's integral to everything that you do. And yet I don't know if you would deal with that separately or if you would say, hey, there's an organization for that too. Right. And I think folks are finding themselves rounding out their skills by working with, you know, one or more over their career. Yeah. Different credentialing sorts of opportunities. Yeah. There are many. Lots and lots.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02] There is. Yeah, absolutely. So, Amy, what do you feel like, I don't want to say what's your roadmap, but like what do you guys kind of working towards? What do you feel like the future is for HRCI and even just credentialing in this space? Like what's the future?

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01] Right. So, I think along the lines of looking at, we did some research at HRCI. We just launched our state of HR report for 2026. So, we surveyed almost 5,000 folks from around the world. First time ever. We're going to blow this out even more next year. But what were, you know, kind of what we found and what we heard from folks is that they're really, technology is a skill where they need to develop more. Yeah.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01] From a career journey perspective, HR professionals don't feel like they have a career path. And they're kind of rethinking their strategy about HR being their longitudinal profession. Yeah. And so, we need to make sure that HR professionals are seeing the value that they are bringing, not only just to their work, but to the profession overall.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01] And we know that as we have been a more quiet career partner to HR professionals, we need to help even more than we have before. Yeah. Not just through certifications, but identifying sort of what are, if you want to go into compensation and benefits, what are those different skills that you need to be developing right now? And then giving them a career path. So, I think that's a really important way that we can continue to partner with HR professionals around that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01] And that we need to help them with the technology piece, right? Yeah. Like, this is where in our research that although people are launching different technology initiatives, they just feel underskilled to be able to do this. So, we need to be helping them to upskill themselves around technology. And it's not just putting in a new payroll system or putting in a new performance management system. It's bigger than that.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01] So, how do we lead these large-scale changes to shift what technology will look like within your organization or could look like?

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00] I have to believe data and analytics is another one. Or financials, right? Because, like, endless amounts of HR leaders will be very uncomfortable with the business case or figuring out how to quantify metrics or results. And they just want the squishy side, right? Yeah, that's right. Of HR.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02] That's where they're safe.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01] Well, right. Right. It is. It is a more comfortable space. But if you can speak that language, that financial language, it's really important. Looking at the HCROI, the Human Capital Return on Investment, if you're looking at those components within your business, you can speak the language of financials. Yep. You will have exhilarating conversations with your CFO who will say, you're hearing me. You're understanding what I need to see from a financial perspective.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01] And I get and will be a partner with you as you're asking for more resources. Because right now, another outcome of our research was that organizations are investing more in HR than they ever have before. So not just in the people. But, yeah. So we're really seeing that C-Suite is saying, we need more here. We need more out of HR, which, you know, HR is tapped and stretched and stressed and workload. But even more so, we've got to lean in.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00] Well, and with that investment comes accountability, right? That's exactly right. So if they're not being asked for it right from the start, pull up your britches because it's coming. That's right. Yeah.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, look, HR leaders are business leaders and they need to know that and they need to carry themselves that way. And they just happen to sit in HR, right? And I think if you think like a business leader, especially in this age, you know, with what we have available to us now and the knowledge we have, you're a business leader. Act accordingly. Carry yourself that way and watch what happens. I think it's a different, the different attitudes and lens on your organization comes out.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01] That's right.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02] In that way. So, yeah. So, look, Amy, this has been really fantastic. Anything else to close this out before we wrap up?

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01] If anybody would like to know more about HRCI, they can visit our website at hrci.org. You can follow me at Amy Wang. I'm on LinkedIn and we've got several podcasts that we'd love to have people join where they're free. And it's just a great way to continue your learning because don't stop learning. Learn, learn, learn.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. You got to, right now, I think you got to learn, unlearn and relearn very quickly. That's right. And I love that. If you'd share that report link that you mentioned a couple of times, I'd love to pop that in as well. We'll take all those links and put them in the description for your show. Sure. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Amy. It's been great. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of the conference and thank you for joining us. Yes. Thank you so much. Take care, everyone.