Bob Cicero, Global Director of Workplace Experience at Cisco, Balancing 90,000 AI Agents and the Flexible Workforce

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00] Real quick, before this episode gets started, I have a question for you. How do you scale both your local and your global talent? Do you take on the risk? Do you pay the taxes? Do you actually set up a local entity everywhere your talent is located? Well, I hope you don't, because today's episode is sponsored by Safeguard Global. Safeguard is one of the leading employers record since 2008.

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[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01] Safeguard.com

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02] Tony, first of all, thanks for having me today. So, a couple decades, but I won't date myself being at Cisco. And it's often you're asked around, you know, why, you know, two decades. I've had, you know, many different roles and jobs. And quite frankly, I feel like we invent the future a lot, which is what the exciting part is.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02] And especially when we think about the way that we work and how we work and we think about the progression of technology, even doing what we're doing today with, you know, thinking about recording a podcast with video was foreign a decade ago.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_02] And so, now it's just commonplace. But when we think about this notion of future work, we really wanted to think through this from the standpoint of the pandemic and what the pandemic did for us and the acceleration of the adoption of technology, which really aligns around how do we really make the workplace better for employees, take the friction out of it, but also get it ready for where we are today, right? From the standpoint of AI and what's happening from the agentic world and how does all that come together.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02] That's what excites me inside the company.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'll tell you, my Cisco experience goes back to my Stanley days. I want to say it was probably 2013. We really started investing significantly in Cisco's telepresence. And at the time, it seemed like, what is this technology? And why are we doing this? And we set up these huge screens in these offices and then we get like the private ones.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01] But fast forward, just two years after we started, we stopped traveling to corporate headquarters every quarter for a QR. We could just meet with everybody globally and have what felt like a real interaction, real meeting and business conversation without having to get people on planes. So, to me, that was really eye-opening. That was all, of course, well ahead of the pandemic.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01] But to me, that's a way that Cisco brought this new reality of work to life, the way that you're describing. They're always innovating in that space.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02] It's so true. In 2013, you think, you know, 13 years ago, almost 14 years ago. That was incredible technology. We had many stories of literally customers that would be, you know, experiencing the technology. A pencil would roll off the table on one side and the person that was virtual would go and try to pick the pencil up. Because they forgot because they were in this immersive experience. But it was just honestly, you know, as really the start of the technology, when we think about what's happening from an immersive video standpoint.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. So, tell me a little bit about your, you know, summarize, I guess, your journey. Because you came up in a lot of different roles on the commercial side, but then wound up in this role that's really about hybrid work. Just help me understand a little bit how you landed here and what your role entails now.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02] So, it's an interesting journey. So, I've always loved construction and thinking and looking at how structure is built. I've always loved architecture. And I'm a technologist at heart, right? My undergrad is, you know, electrical engineering. So, looking at all those confluence of those elements coming together, really had a passion around the notion of how do we build a better workplace? And so, the workplace that, as we think about today, which should sense, reason, and act.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02] And so, it has been a journey. And as we think about workplace, we think about, you know, real estate from an asset perspective. It is a long-tail business. And so, how do you think about that notion and bring forward technology, which rapidly changes, right? We talked about telepresence and where we are today. And we think about the pace is even accelerating. So, how do we take this long-tail approach from a real estate space point of view, meld it together with technology that not only allows us to adapt for the future,

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02] but also really take the friction out of the workplace and really cater to the employee in thinking about the inhabitants. And technology shouldn't be an encumbrance, right? A lot of times, you look at some workplaces that are out there, and technology is an encumbrance, right? How many meetings have you walked in? It takes 10 minutes to start a meeting. Think about that. You do that eight times a day, right? That's 80 minutes that we're just sitting there trying to get a meeting started. Technology should just work, right?

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02] And great, think about engineering, right? And you think about, you know, Disney. You go to Disney World. Great engineering disappears, right? You don't see it. You experience it. And so, just a great experience. And so, that led me to this point where really thinking about the intersection of people, space, and technology. And how do we make it better for all of us?

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01] I like that you described that friction. Because it does, friction equals inefficiency and frustration. It just slows down the momentum of work. Like, where else do you see friction as it pertains to the workplace and people's inability to just get quickly into collaboration mode?

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02] Friction honestly starts when you first walk in, right? And folks that are walking into a place, unless they're going there every single day, like, how do you find the, you know, room that you're trying to go to? Once you get into the room, is that room really ready for you? Or is there something that was not functioning in that room and no one called that into the help desk because there was friction in the process of how do you actually call that ticket in, as an example?

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02] And so, these frustrating moments just occur throughout the workday. And so, how do we think around that notion of taking that friction out? But really, friction starts when you get in, right? And that notion of how do you provide wayfinding? How do you get into a room that we know that works? How do we then, you know, really start the meeting, regardless of the meeting platform, right? Whoever sets up the meeting now is really the platform that you're going to use. Down to, okay, I leave that meeting and go find a workplace, right?

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02] Do I reserve that workplace a day before? Do I reserve that workplace a week before? All those pieces create friction throughout the day. And that's that notion of really, like, how do we use technology to really drive a workplace that senses reasons and then acts with the user and potentially on behalf of the user when we think about the user being the human in this case?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like you're alluding to something, this vision of what this workplace could look like. And it's starting to materialize for me. I'm interested in what that looks like to you. What are some examples of ways that you see us having this frictionless, immersive experience while we're in our offices or even remote?

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02] You know, when you think at, look at, the world is physical and virtual, right? And so when you look at digital equity and you look at this notion of having a great experience, just not in the room, but outside the room, that doesn't happen by chance. That happens through great design and inception around how do you fuse the technology into the design process? But outside of that, it's really then this notion of the space should work with you.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02] And so, for example, you walk into one of our offices. I walk in. I have a big map that I understand actually what's available, what's not available. If I have the room that I need to go to, I can go to the map. I can click the button, QR code. I can scan it with my device. I have blue.way finding to get there. I walk into the room and there's a big green join button that says, join your meeting. We are at that point right now.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02] And for us, as we were on this journey, we really looked at the data side, right? And you think about data and data is surrounding us. And we really want to know what's happening inside the space and place. And so data provides this foundational capability for us to really know that, yes, we want to know that people love it because they vote with their feet, right? But also, is there any other data we know around how people like certain type of spaces? Why do they like those spaces?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02] But what it positioned us for where we're entering now is, you know, you can't have any conversation without my joke. There's two vowels left in the alphabet, right? A and an I. And so the notion of AI is here. And we think about this AI piece and probably remember the first time you used one of the chat bots, if you would, from the notion of chat GPT or Gemini or one of the frontier models. And it was interaction. Said to do something.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02] Might not even have been business related. My first interaction was actually writing. I was trying to get someone's attention. And I wrote a poem and sent it to them in text. They're like, wow, that was witty. But it was a silly use case like that. But now it's in front of us. We're so used to that piece. But where we're heading towards and what's actually being implemented is this notion of agents, right? This digital worker.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02] And so when we think about leaders and leaders lead people, but everyone needs to be a leader now in the future because the fact that they're going to have these digital workers. And so at Cisco, we just rolled out in August, 90,000 employees have agents. So I have an agent. Think about it as my digital worker that is sitting there that I can give tasks to all day long. It can do daily digest for me. It can do research for me. But it's this notion of having these agents that are sitting beside us. And it's just not going to be one. It's going to be 10. But those folks need to interact with humans.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02] They're going to interact with themselves, agent to agent. We call it in the tech world. But that needs to interact with the place, right? The workplace. And so that's that notion of the act side of the sense, reason, and act is how do you bring that together? And that's really where we're heading. And we're heading there at a rapid pace. I think there's, you know, folks, there's commercial tools out there, right? If you look at Dots or Muse, et cetera, people are starting to use these agents in their personal lives. They're like, oh, my goodness, this is incredible technology.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02] That is going to be infused into our daily lives from work perspective. But it shouldn't just stop with human to agent or agent to agent. It needs to interact with the workplace.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01] Well, first of all, you get a gold star for waiting nine and a half minutes before bringing up AI. That's not easy to do. But there's a reason for that. Because it is so integrated into our lives and our work.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01] And now that people are using these, you know, consumer agents and they're embracing it in their personal lives, there becomes this expectation to see the same kind of efficiency and support in their work lives. But that's always a tricky and sometimes delicate balance on that enterprise level.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01] Regardless, I'm really interested in how you see that helping to reduce the friction in the workplace experience for folks who are, you know, heading into the office.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02] It's it's I think when what's going to happen is and we're starting to see it is the agent aspect. Right. And you think about you asked about the friction piece. Imagine a world we talked about friction that exists for people today. Right. Simple examples of like wayfinding walking into a room. It's not ready for you or something's broken, etc. But imagine a world of, you know, hypothetically speaking, you and I had a meeting in a room that we're waiting outside for because the previous meeting wasn't done.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02] And in that meeting, the folks that were in that meeting from an experience standpoint, they were having an experience problem with some cloud application that they're working on. There's a lot of the agents behind the scenes are looking at that and saying, hey, we've identified an issue. What is the issue? And they're going to go communicate amongst each other and say it's a wireless issue because your neighbor turned on wireless in the building that interacted with your frequency. Right. And I need to change all that. And configuration can happen automatically.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02] But the agent said, hey, I can't get this done in time for Tony and Bob to jump in this room. Let's go redirect them to a room that we know is available, has the capabilities that they need, has the comfort settings that they need, has some of the potential. You know, you think about environmental elements of noise and light, etc. Has all that that we know those two folks like. Redirect them automatically and give them a blue dot on their phone and go direct them into that room. I walk we walk in.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02] We didn't miss a beat and we're sitting at the table. That is not too far in the distant future. We think about that friction being removed from the entire process as the humans, right, interacting with that workplace.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That exists in a lot of different ways. We have a lot of different ways of working with different types of colleagues. We know that increasingly employees, freelancers, fractional leaders. I'm currently, you know, fractional CHRO and agents are all working together differently. How else does the workplace need to evolve to support all these different relationships that we have in the collaborative work experience?

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02] It's a great question, right? When you think about all the, you know, the personas, if you would, from employees and contractors and agents coming together. I think that what's ultimately going to happen is, is what's, you know, when you think about the two modes of work, right, if your focus work that you would traditionally do at your desk, what's, you know, a lot of that's going to be done by, you know, the agents. And so what's left is the moments for us to collaborate amongst humans, right?

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02] When you think about whether you're solving a problem, brainstorming, right, you're learning, you're, you know, you're socializing, having a collaborative meeting to make a decision. It's going to be those human and human moments that are really going to be amplified for us to think about the creativity side of it, right? That AI is not there for yet from the standpoint of the creativity piece. It's really going to be the amplification.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02] But when you think about the technology piece of it, shouldn't matter if I'm a freelancer, shouldn't matter if I'm a guest right there. The access to the technology should all be the same. It should be so easy to use that doesn't matter if you have never seen it before. It should just work. But it's really that human and human interaction, I think, is going to be amplified here in the future.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02] And it's really going to be about those collaborative spaces that are going to be super critical and not so much really where we thought about focus work in the past.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I like that. I mean, certainly we want to enable as much of that human to human work, but we have to make it really intuitive. I like the example of even if you're a guest, you should be able to navigate what you need to do. And it's not quite there, but we've seen the progress, like you said, since the pandemic. This has changed dramatically. The investment in collaboration technology and software spiked during and after the pandemic, and we've carried that with us.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01] And the remote work that blew up, and now as it moves back into the office, still, there's much more of an affinity. I remember early days starting with Stanley back in 2008 and being on conference calls, but not being in the office. And people would just forget you're on the call. Like, oh, just talking. You need to unmute the line, please. Like, sending people text messages. Guys, help me out. I'm still out here.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01] Because it was unusual a lot of the time for that to be the case. Now it's pretty automatic. Like, we've become a lot more accustomed to it in what I think is a short period of time for, you know, that type of technology adoption. And I like that. I've read that you said of going into the office, we need to earn the commute.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01] Tell me a little bit more about what you mean by that and what should people be able to accomplish that makes it work a longer commute than I currently have, which is two minutes to my bed. I'm sorry, two seconds to my bed.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02] For us, it was a notion of we as an organization did not want to mandate folks to come back to the office after the pandemic. And we still don't. We look at this notion of the space and place that you go to, the workplace, should be so incredible from removing friction. Should be delightful. Should be a fantastic environmental experience, right? Should just be really about the experience where you want to go there.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02] It's not, hey, I don't have to be in, you know, two days a week, three days a week, et cetera. But I want to go there. That was really a mindset shift for us, right? And we need to really rethink the notion of just not designing technology in and thinking about table shape and all the other elements around digital equity, et cetera. But how do we think about environmental factors, right? How do we think through the notion of, you know, noise, lighting, you know, shading? Things should just work automatically, right?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02] And as we've gone forward, right, our latest London location, we took a really heavy view at neurodiversity. And so when we think about the neurodiverse population, right, 20% of the world, think of the literature that you read is neurodiverse.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02] And so how do you then think about that through texture and sound and giving quiet reset spots for folks that come throughout there from, say, a subway ride or a train ride or you're sitting in traffic for an hour, you're stressed. How do you give them a place to reset, right? So if you walked into our London office, as an example, it is a room, you open the door, it is super quiet in there. There is no technology. It gives you just an opportunity to really reset.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02] And that's what we're really thinking about to give all the pieces of the tool set, if you would, to bring, to make sure we earn the commute for people that want to be there. And so far it's working, right? People want to be in these new spaces. And more importantly is that these new spaces will adapt over time because I think, you know, you mentioned this notion of software. It's going to rapidly iterate. And so what we have today is not going to be what we have from six months from now, what we have for a year from now.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02] It is going to be software that is just going to continually iterate and make it better as we move forward.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I like that you describe the evolution, including getting away from technology, because it certainly seems like whether we want to or not, it's really difficult to get away from technology in our day-to-day lives working and not working. And sometimes you need that kind of cleansing experience to reset and get your mind right. But that's not easy to accomplish. You know, we have buds in our ears. We've got wearables.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01] We've got, you know, our phone that we can't leave anywhere without or else all of our other devices start going off to let us know we forgot it. So I absolutely, I like the sound of, of no sound, of people having the opportunity to make that transition and take that break as a part of their environment that it's probably hard to find in a lot of different locations.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02] It is. Yeah. But I think we need to, to your point around, we can't get away from it. It's ingrained in our daily lives. You know, your, your watch, your wearables, the rings, right? The, your mobile device. But providing a quiet place for folks to reset if they so choose, it's important.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I'm curious how, how do companies assess, you know, kind of their current state and where, how do they figure out where are we falling short? Or, and then are there metrics that they should identify to understand whether they're making progress towards this kind of improvement when it comes to their workplace experience?

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02] It's, you know, we use a lot of benchmarking in terms of looking at one certifications that we should start really thinking heavily about as it relates to the human side of it. Right. So as an example, Cisco, a lot of our locations are well compliant, right? And we think about well, it really defines air quality. It really defines, you know, making sure we maximize natural light and make sure we look at the noise levels.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02] But it's a, it's a program, right, that we've instituted inside the company aligned to a standard for us to really think about the workplace as it relates to the human piece of it, right? It's, you know, based on biology. It's not just based on, you know, something from a technology standpoint or something made up. It is based on biology for sure from a well standpoint. So we've rallied around pieces of certifications that we think are important as we think about this notion of, you know, people, space and technology.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02] The other piece is, is that, you know, we've done Leasman Index as a measurement from the standpoint of the user experience inside the space. And so we'll use benchmarking tools like that as well. But we also look at just the raw data. Are people coming? Are they voting with their feet, right? That is the best, you know, example of is the space being utilized and are people coming back again and again and again because they just have a delightful experience.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02] So really for us, it's a combination of programmatic approach when we think about like well as an example, some of the indexes that have been out there for a while from an industry standpoint. And then looking at now that we have all this data about space in place, like consistently look at that and really understand what's happening from an employee standpoint as they interface with the workplace.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01] I have to assume as well that there's, you know, some, some sense of, or at least assumption of productivity improvement, you know, engagement or retention from the employee standpoint. But also as you look at how do we design a space to use, you know, more natural light and, and have all these other environmental characteristics. I have to assume there's got to be some type of cost benefit as well.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01] It's kind of a win-win as it relates to engaging your employees, but also designing, you know, productivity and cost efficiency into building.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02] For sure. Like the approach we've taken from this integrated workplace, you know, technology stack allows us to design great places, spaces and places, but doing it with a, you know, fiscally responsible manner. Right. When we think about the, you know, the elements we need to subscribe to there. Um, when we look at that piece of it, right, we've, we've got that element, um, certainly as part of this.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02] And so when we look at the workplace design right now, we're looking at not just, Hey, I think we work this way, but we know, we know how we work. Right. And we know that, for example, like the device I'm sitting on right now, yes, I'm at home, but that's counting. And if there was other folks in this room, it's counting us. So we have all this data. So we know how we're working as an organization. We can design the right spaces. We have different, say, furniture settings.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02] We know ones that people like, we know ones that people don't like. So now we have an empirical set of data that we can then, you know, always lean on for us to be able to influence the future, um, from the standpoint of how we're thinking about the design element.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01] So, Bob, for people that are, our audience is listening to this and they're getting inspired because they see the potential for, you know, these workplace changes, investments, design, et cetera, uh, could really engage their teams better and get them in their offices more. Or they're either, you know, returning to the office or they're just trying to motivate people to come to the office.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01] What are a few things that they could do in the next, you know, 90 days to make progress in that direction?

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02] It's a great question. I think a lot of folks, if we think about, you know, typical corporation, you have your, your IT organization, you have a real estate team, um, might have, you know, in the HR component as well. Right. And so a lot of times, like for example, our real estate team works for HR because space and place is about the people. Um, so I would encourage folks to really take a look at, you might have a lot of data already, but it's sitting in the IT world.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02] And so how do you, you know, sort of reach across and the, you know, build a bridge over to IT to say, Hey, I'm trying to really figure out space and place because the data is there, right? It could be wireless data, right? We think about connectivity, you think about endpoints. So you might have the data, um, that can give you a really good baseline, but when you're embarking on any projects, um, unfortunately the industry has grown up.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02] When you think about designing construction where technology is an afterthought and you have to have a conscious effort of bringing the right folks in upfront to really reimagine. And it is fresh thinking for us as a company. And when we started this in, you know, 2019, in October, 2019, we first meeting was everything we did before. Let's forget about it. This is a new fresh start.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02] And so that notion of bringing the right team together, bringing the right components inside the organization that you might not have had at the table before. Start there as well as really thinking about how you're structured from an organization standpoint and how do you leverage and really partner with IT, um, is another key, key element to think about. And then also be very mindful of selection from, you know, design team, et cetera, really thinking through this notion of, you know, space and place and how your organization works.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02] But more importantly is, is that how do we then take that and apply it to really practical design that we can iterate over time on? And that's what we've found success in. Um, I would say that would be the, the really key functional elements because everyone has a project that, you know, going on at any given time. Um, when you look at, you know, from real estate repositioning, et cetera, standpoint. So that's what I would, I would look at for sure.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01] Well, one, I think it's super interesting, uh, real estate rolling up under HR. We're seeing in some businesses, more and more functions being aligned around the human resources function because it's all about employee experience, including IT. And AI as, as initiatives and functions. Um, so that, that's, that's pretty cool. That's the first I've heard of real estate, but that absolutely makes sense. Um, thank you for sharing that.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01] So the last question I have for you, Bob, uh, maybe the second to last, because the last thing I'd ask is how people can get in touch with you and follow what you do. But the, the second to last is what, what are you working on or pursuing right now that you're most excited about looking forward to both professionally. And then personally.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02] Um, so to follow me, you can follow me on LinkedIn, um, as a place to, to check it out. Also, um, on our.com and since we have a lot from the workplace experience standpoint, um, professionally, um, I'm always, what I look forward to is that is the next iterative enhancement, um, that we're doing on our spaces, right? As a, as a global organization, we always have something going on. We are always trying to get better every single time.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02] Um, and what I look forward to is that next opportunity to, to make us better and really rethink some of the, you know, pieces and really look at what we've done in the past and looking at data and having, you know, not a, you know, based decisions based on feelings and emotions, but really looking at data, right. To make us really, really better, um, is exciting AI component for sure. We think about the agentic world entering that is all going to, that's all going to happen. That is super exciting because I think it's not about just technology for technology sake.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02] It's really about making the workplace fantastic for, for all of us as humans. Um, and really taking, um, and really taking, having technology, um, play that active role. Um, in my personal life, from the standpoint of what am I looking forward to? Um, I have two, two boys, um, or 12 and nine super active in sports. So I coach a lot.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02] Um, but what my pride and joy is, is, is watching them grow, um, up into, you know, responsible, great, um, you know, contributors to, to the world, um, and watch them, watch them flourish. What sports are you coaching them in? I coach baseball. Um, but they also play ice hockey, which prior to them starting ice hockey, I didn't even know what icing was.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02] And so, uh, it gives me great joy to not just learn a new sport, but watching them on this eight inch steel blade. I don't even know how to ice skate, been on the ice twice in my life and to watch them do what they do. It just is, is really amazing.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, yeah, I grew up in upstate New York. So of course I knew what ice hockey was, but I couldn't move around on those, those blades, just like you described. I'm a big guy. They're tiny. I have no balance. So it takes a lot of skill. It's super cool to kind of be sharing something that you do know and that you're passionate about with your kids and baseball, but then also find something new with them. Yeah. Is there exploring something new, which frankly is a part of your professional world too.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01] You're blending what you know and what is brand new and, and trying to figure out how to make it all work together. Um, couldn't think of a better segue for our wrap up. So thanks a lot, Bob. I really appreciate your time. Uh, look forward to seeing what else comes from Cisco and making our workplaces better. I think it's super cool the way that you guys really set the example with your own spaces and then you bring it to clients and others so that they can enhance their workplaces as well. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of really exciting stuff to come soon.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks again for joining the human cloud podcast and please go and check out Bob's, uh, LinkedIn profile and, and follow his stories.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks, Bob. Thank you.