How Feedback Builds Resilient Performance with Jeremy Shapiro and Lisa Csencsits

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to or welcome back to the Metta Performance Podcast where we bring stories of high performers getting after in all aspects of work, sport, and life. And today I'm so excited to bring this conversation and these guests to you all. I am joined with Jeremy Shapiro and Lisa Csencs to have a great conversation about performance, thriving, HR and organizations, work, sport, life, all the things.

[00:00:29] And with that, I always like to say when I work with individuals, what you do isn't who you are. So our listeners know we jump into conversations right away and just get started. So with that, Jeremy, I'd love for you to describe yourself in your own words, who you are. Gosh, okay. Well, one, thank you for calling anything performance.

[00:00:50] But so I'm Jeremy Shapiro, so I get to work at Merck Pharmaceuticals and I run an analytics team inside of HR. So the three of us have kind of talent passion for that as well. I'm a very late in life endurance athlete. And so I started about 11, 12 years ago. And so I mostly focus in on half iron distance. I did like Placid last year as a full, as my full hope. Maybe the one and only we'll find out later.

[00:01:20] And my plan for this year is I've never had the opportunity to run the New York Marathon. And I'm looking forward to that later in the year. Amazing. Thank you. And Lisa. Yeah. So thank you, Holly. And thank you, Jeremy. I'm very excited to be a part of this today. So my name is Lisa Census. I have been in the talent development, talent management space for almost 20 years.

[00:01:43] I have had quite an interesting career in what I like to call not performance, not just performance management, but performance enablement within organizations. And so I'm very passionate about helping organizations create cultures that not only sees leadership effectiveness as part of what drives employee engagement and employee performance in an organization,

[00:02:10] but working with organizations that makes leadership effectiveness a core metric for how they achieve financial and operational success. So leadership effectiveness being in the center of how does the organization succeed overall in hitting all of its metrics. I like how Jeremy says it. I am also. So while I have 20 years of experience being a talent development leader and working with many organizations, which is how I've had the pleasure of meeting Jeremy in throughout this career.

[00:02:39] I, I'm also a late to life athlete. So a little bit about that. I started riding a bike and never did a sport in my life eight years ago and came to this realization after I started competing in some local time trials and bike races with my husband and just getting out there, not even knowing any information about what it takes to race a bike or obviously knowing how to ride a bike and started winning a couple of local races,

[00:03:07] caught the eye of a local coaches, found out that I have something that I have a very high VO2 max for anybody who's listening who understands what that is. But my journey around performance didn't really take the leap forward that I needed it to take in order to reshape my whole life until after I took on a battle, a journey with breast cancer and doing a preventative double mastectomy. That helped me redefine what I see as performance throughout my life.

[00:03:37] And it has completely changed who I am from the core to how I show up at work, to how I show up at home, to how I show up as an athlete. So after that experience, I actually went on to compete at the USA national time trials in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And in 2022, I was able to become a USA national champion in the 40K time trial. And ever since then,

[00:04:02] I've now been on team USA twice in 2023 and 2024, competing at the world championship for my age category in the time trial category. And I know that our listeners can clearly see why I was so excited to have you both on. And Lisa, you know, you got us started with mentioning how your definition of performance has shifted. Absolutely.

[00:04:31] Over the past handful of years. And I'd love to ask you what that is. How do you personally define performance? Never giving up, never taking no for an answer and constantly challenging myself to try new things. Like I said, my experience has completely reshaped and redefined how I see my performance. And how I also gauge other people's performance. So for me, I hit rock bottom. I was unable to use my arms after my procedures.

[00:05:00] I never thought I'd get back on a bike. And the number one thing that helped me get through that was finding the courage to ask other people for help. And Jeremy is one of them. I thought my whole life, oh, I could do this. I can, I got this. I can do this on my own. But asking people for help and being so open to learning new things and trying new things. And I have to tell you, there is not one day where I don't learn something new. And I never come into a room saying that my way is the right way.

[00:05:30] That all was shaped by the kindness. And I love, Jeremy's wearing a shirt right now that has kindness going across it. The kindness of others. You never know where help is going to come from. You never know how someone's perspective around what you're looking to achieve might redefine how you're looking at it. So performance to me is an ongoing pedal stroke that just never ends. And with each, you know, shift of the gear,

[00:05:58] you learn something new and you try it and you adapt and you evolve and you learn from it. And you just keep learning from it. So as long as you're willing to do that, you're never going to stop. That's beautiful. And thank you so much for sharing. It makes me think of a phrase that I've heard of. Rock bottom is a great place to push off of. And how challenges can really help us with the right mindset, the right support system, understand more about ourselves, what challenges mean for us, how we define performance. And what you're really,

[00:06:27] you know, underlining is that the power and help in asking others for help, for people to come in and support us in a time of need. And with that, Jeremy, I'd love to hear not only how you define performance, but maybe share a little bit about how you two met. Yeah. Oh, wow. So let's do that first. So Lisa and I got to meet, I worked for her at Cornell. So as Lisa was directing the, the Cornell industrial labor and relations extension program,

[00:06:57] I designed and then taught an HR analytics class for, for, for the team. And I got to know her and became friends through that, through that process. And then there was one day that I saw her actually teach. And I was like, whoa, you'd like Lisa, not only does Lisa know her material, but is so flexible in how she presents and so forth. It's, it's, I think one of the things that, that really, how, why we became friends is,

[00:07:25] is your growth mindset and your ability to, to absorb material, then translate it to really thousands of people. I mean, you got to touch thousands and thousands of HR professionals through, through, through the Cornell experience. I mean, I think a lot of people owe some of their, the great success in their careers to the work that Lisa got to do together. So that was our relationship before a couple of years ago, when we, we, we retouched base on something and we realized, I think you'd seen in my background, a bike.

[00:07:55] And she's like, Oh, tell me more about that. And so then we tried, we try to actually get some things done that had anything to do with work. But of course, just like any athlete, 80% of our conversation turned into what's your, you know, what, what's your, what's your plan? How are you, like how, and you know, Lisa got to tell me her UCI story. The big difference between Lisa and I is I've also been to the world championships in the spectator section. You've been in the,

[00:08:24] you've been in the gate for, for this as well, but it's such a special experience to see, to see performance occur like, like this. And so, you know, one of the translations, like from a company perspective of when, when Lisa talks about this, well, one resilience is certainly a word that, that I know you, you used a lot. And there is a, there is a researcher that's done fantastic work on this called grit by Angela Duckworth. It's very well known, but if anyone's listening, I'm like, Hey,

[00:08:53] I want to know more about how I could apply that to my professional life to pick up that. Her research interests have moved on, but it's, it's an awesome way to think about that. You know, the, one of the things that I find helpful when it comes to understanding my own performance is this idea of getting help. So I'm, I'm coached by a group up in North Jersey, Capuzza multi-sport coaching. And this fantastic cyclist, Laura Abbey is my coach.

[00:09:18] What I depend on her for is to have a perspective on me that I can't hold. And that I think is so important because that type of feedback is something that it's very difficult for any one of us to be able to, to be able to, to look at. And I love looking at data and looking at, and try to understand patterns and so forth, but you can't do it to yourself. And that's what I think is, is so helpful about having the,

[00:09:46] the outside and the other component. I mean, we'll probably get into a feedback culture. Yes. Like if you are in company life, getting feedback and authentic feedback is really performance. And like right before this, I just kind of try to sketch down what is high perform, how does that high performance in athletics maybe translate into company life? And I wrote it in a different way than I've seen characterized in the past. So I, I kind of try to break it into three ideas. So it would be like this.

[00:10:15] One is be helpful, aligned with the organization's strategy, two times more at least than anyone ever expected. So how do you like break it down elementally into those things? So that's, so it's be helpful within, within the strategy. And like, because, you know, there's so many times when we talk about performance inside of a company, and it's everyone struggles and everyone tries to figure out what's the, what's the secret sauce. And like,

[00:10:43] I think half the time that I think Lisa shares this too, sometimes you're coaching someone internally and they are trying so hard, just like you see on the field or just like you might see in athletic when they, if they just shifted their mindset just a little bit to something else, like being helpful, we all want to be helpful. What's that one little thing, you know, as long as you're help, if you're helpful in something, it doesn't matter. It's not performance, right? It's gotta be something that actually matters and then matters a lot more like, okay,

[00:11:13] yeah, that's probably it. So that's, that would be my, my kind of version of translating that into company life. We're, we're in class. I'm taking notes as I mentioned, and I'd love to ask you both as a response to that. Great, great notes, Jeremy, as an athlete. I know I can very easily identify a handful of examples, probably more. If I gave it more time where, when I was being coached as an athlete, something very simple, I like to say simple, but not easy.

[00:11:43] Shift in mindset allowed me to unlock or take the next step in my performance journey in sport. And I'm curious if both of you have an example of that, that comes to mind. And then I'd love to maybe bring that into the workspace where we can kind of see, you know, an example, Jeremy, of what you're speaking to here. Yeah. At least you want to do it. I can do it. I mean, I'm going. I got it. I got it. Okay. So, so here, here's one, one thing. So I'm, I'm,

[00:12:11] because I was late in life and I do triathlon stuff. I was not a swimmer. I could not swim a stroke. And that's by the way, the most iron. Yes. And it is. So like, what a, what a lesson in humility to try to get into a pool and, and get, get yourself to easily swim. And like building technique that to me is, is so hard in swimming because I didn't grow up with it. That when, when Laura, my coach said to me one day, you're a good swimmer.

[00:12:41] I said, what? What are you talking? Like just having that outside feedback of saying, yeah, you've actually reached the point where, where your, your mindset can shift. That was actually instructive to me in, in my every, every day life too, is one of the times where I can call out somebody's habit, someone's thought in a way that they don't think of themselves. That can actually change their frame, change their perception and kind of pick your moments.

[00:13:10] Because if you do it all the time, people tune out. Right. It's gotta be, it's gotta be resonant to the person. You know them well enough and you can see, you know, the details of their life enough that if you talk about that thing, that's, what's going to change the way that they, that they perceive. So that's, that's one of the things that I certainly kind of hang on to. Yeah. I mean, I can think of two really great examples. One from 20 years ago, when I first started out in my career,

[00:13:38] that actually is exactly what Jeremy's saying. Seeking the thoughts and perspectives of others on yourself is one of the greatest leadership capabilities. I think anybody can have being willing to hear feedback on how you're showing up and actually taking it in. So I used to joke around with my husband all the time. Every time I designed a personality assessment or some sort of like tool to help better understand, you know, someone's working style,

[00:14:06] I would give it to my husband who I've been with since high school. And I'll be like, can you fill this out on me? And I would see myself very differently than he would see himself. And I find building those relationships. So going back into the workplace, building those relationships with the people that you surround yourself or that you are surrounded by where they feel comfortable sharing feedback really can help you have that instant mindset shift. Like, so for example, first time I ever did the Myers-Briggs,

[00:14:36] I'm sitting down with my boss 20 years ago. I defined creativity as someone who could draw. Meanwhile, I do stick figures and I'm lucky you can read my handwriting if I'm trying to write in print. Right. And she turned to me one day and she was like, Lisa, no, you just designed an entire leadership development program for our company from scratch. That's creativity. And I took that to heart. And I used that one single piece of feedback to open a door to a career that I love and adore.

[00:15:07] But I'll also share with you another, like your mindset is always changing. So I'm a female athlete. I'm in my forties, right? I've started in my mid thirties and the, the mindset from the people that I was working with to become a better cyclist was the more you cycle, the better you'll be. Well, so I only cycled. And, but now I'm going like, for me, my life is different. I have two boys, ages 10 and 12.

[00:15:37] Their social life is much more jam packed than mine. I don't have three, four hours a day to cycle. And I wish I did because I do still have a dream of possibly standing on that UCI world podium. But I also know reality, the time constraints, but physical cheat, like me, I'm changing physically with every phase of life, right? I'm getting older. I'm like Jeremy. I never thought I'd swim a day in my life. Now I'm starting to swim.

[00:16:05] I never ran a mile in my life until just last year. And that's just because I was like, I don't have time to go for an hour bike ride. So I'm just going to put on running shoes and go, but also nutrition, how important that is to feed the brain and how you can't, you can't let, you can't not go with certain types of nutrition or for me, depending on my stress levels and what's going on in my day to day or where, you know, I am in whatever phase of life I'm in.

[00:16:32] And the way I train has to change based on all of the, the ecosystem for which I'm trying to live and breathe every day. And so I'm, I'm a big, I've been reading a lot of Stacey Sims and I never lifted a weight in my life. And now I'm on, you know, buying myself a hex bar or trap bar. And I'm like, okay, I got to start doing this. My mindset went from the only way I'm going to get stronger on the bike is by riding more to,

[00:17:02] I'm going to get stronger on the bike. If I start adopting different physical training techniques to utilize my muscles in different ways and then expand my potential in many other ways, like Pilates and running, all these other things, what I eat, how I fuel, all those things, even just taking one single Pilates class,

[00:17:27] I couldn't stand on one leg without tipping over that one instant changes my entire mindset. And when you take it from training for your sport to how you are at work, it really makes me be more willing to take an idea to a team of people or a group of people and say, Hey, I want to hear your thoughts because your experiences are very different than mine. And your knowledge is very different than mine. So back to what Jeremy was saying,

[00:17:55] really trying to keep it simple, but also trying to make sure that whatever you're doing, performance is not just defined by one element. It's defined by the situations you're in, the people you're working with. So there's no one right way to define performance. Depends on what you're looking to achieve and what your constraints are and also what your opportunities are. So I think our mindsets always have to be flexible and agile and shifting,

[00:18:24] because the world around us and our bodies and our mind have different needs at different points of life. Yeah. You know, just picking up on Lisa's point here, too, is that for those that are not in the habit of asking for feedback and really being vulnerable in this way, there's a phrase that I find helpful that has been amended. So the phrase that you both will know being great HR people is feedback is a gift. That is, that's a commonly known phrase in our talent nerdy world.

[00:18:54] But I want to add a few words to it. Feedback is a gift that rarely feels like it at the time. That's the key is if you don't feel a little bit of discomfort at first, you're probably not going deep enough. You need to be, you need to expect that maybe in the moment, it's not going to feel so comfortable to get that feedback. Over time, the gift reveals itself to you. And I think this is probably true. I think it's true on the course.

[00:19:24] I think it's true in, in, in the jobs that, or the passion that you have in your, in your daily life, regardless of how you, of how you spend it. I mean, how many times, I mean, like, so I, I just, I just did a half iron, the happy valley half iron, which is fantastic. Like course. So nice. But as I looked, oh, thank you. The, but you know, when I, when I looked at my data at the end of it, I'm like, ah, you know, I, did I really hit the numbers I was looking for? And then going back to my coach and she's like, well,

[00:19:53] this is exactly what I thought you would have done. Given where you are right now and coming back from some injury and so forth to your data set exactly what it was going to be. And it was helpful context to see like, that, that needs to get paid off over time to kind of accept it and understand what that, what that looks like too. So this, this feedback habit for those that if, if, if it's a concept that you haven't fully warmed to yet, warm to it, it's, it's a game changer. And you know what,

[00:20:23] Holly, I have to go off of what you just said, because Jeremy, I learned something new from Jeremy every time I meet with him and I sit with him. You know, it said he worked for me at Cornell, but honestly, he's one of my greatest mentors too, because I, I find any person that you can learn from is a great mentor. Even if you don't, you know, I have had many leaders in my life that I didn't, I could not stand working for that person. I've had coaches who, you just got in my, leave me alone. I,

[00:20:53] I know what I got to do. I'm a big formula one race car fan. I think it was Kimi Räikkönen who once said on his radio, just let me race my car. Yeah. But I, and I can't say how many times my poor husband, he could, he, there's things now that I reflect on that. Wow. If only I took your feedback, then it would have made a world difference. But going back, like, you know, Jeremy, the, the learnings that Jeremy has had throughout his career. And I mean,

[00:21:23] he's doing something so amazing to take on not just one sport, but three sports, right. Later in life. And he goes at it with such passion and such ease and such knowledge. And we'll engage, we'll drive 50 miles to come and meet up with me, to have a cup of coffee. So we can talk about what, you know, everything he's learned and how he's applying it. And then I walk away from that conversation and I'm thinking to myself, wow, I could do that. I'm, I'm inspired. I mean,

[00:21:52] and that's the beauty of not just feedback for yourself, but also, you know, curiosity. So Jeremy, we, all these buzzwords, right. We use them every day of our life, like vulnerability to listen to feedback, curiosity to seek others thoughts. I think one of the keys to success in performance is being able to reflect. And you, I, Jeremy, I love that add on with the feedback. Like if it doesn't feel just uncomfortable,

[00:22:21] then maybe you're not going deep enough. Well, it's okay that it's not feeling uncomfortable in the moment because that gives you opportunity to reflect. Why isn't it making me feel comfortable right now? And that's a mindset shift in itself. And every athlete has, has to admit to that, right? You get multiple perspectives on how you should show up race day. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's, how do you apply it in the moment,

[00:22:49] especially under stress, pressure, right? So much is uncontrollable in sports. And the same thing happens in the world of work. One day, everything's going great. And then the very next day, there's a change in priorities because of something that's happening in the world around us. And you have to be able to pivot. Yes. You're both mentioning very similar themes of resilience, flexibility, and you both mentioned something that comes back to challenge, being challenged,

[00:23:19] being willing to be challenged and choosing, sometimes not choosing your challenges, but being able to take on that challenge in the pursuit of growth and development without even knowing what that growth and development may be. But I definitely think that's a mindset of a willingness to embrace or seek out challenge in order for an experience, right? And Lisa, I know during your intro, you mentioned something personal to you,

[00:23:48] but I think that again, sport is such a beautiful opportunity for us to willingly choose our hard, choose our challenge without a guarantee of the outcome and what we learn along the way and how we develop our mindset. And I'm curious how that kind of resonates with you both and what draws you continuously to seek challenge. I could answer that in one quick sentence and then hand it over to Jeremy.

[00:24:18] What draws me is the people I get to meet along the way with every new challenge that I have, that I take on, you know, and there's hearing their stories and listening to their passion. And like Jeremy said, one of the, we went years without seeing each other and speaking, and then we reconnect and, oh, wow, you're into this sport. But I think it's, it's the relationships and the connections that you make with other people

[00:24:46] who may not have the same exact challenge as you, but every person is going through a challenge. And it's a beautiful thing when people are willing to talk about their challenges, share their learnings, and be able to identify opportunities to seek other adventures. And I don't even want to call it challenges, just adventures. There's new, both at work and in your personal life. And bringing those people along with you on your journey,

[00:25:16] just, if it makes you smile, then that's a wonderful achievement in itself. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Well said. I totally agree, Lisa. And as, so when I think about this for, for me, one, I almost dial it into like company motivation or kind of, you know, your work life and then into athletics too, because sometimes I'll ask for, for myself or, or kind of people that I'm working with, what, what is your primary motivator? What brought you here? Because for, for some, you know,

[00:25:46] sort of for friends, people on the, on the tri team, they're in it for the competition component. Others are in it for a challenge modality. I want to see if I can personally, can I go 140 miles, right? Type of, type of thing. That's, that's part of the modality. There's other folks who, who come do it because they are, they are working out something, right? So there, a friend of mine who, no matter what, he cycles 30 miles a day, rain,

[00:26:16] snow, and a friend of mine had been commented to him. You got some personal demons. You are working through every mile, right? Of, of what's going on. We all have a seed for what we're doing when we're out. Either on the course for, for a competition, doing it for pleasure. So, you know, I, I think about this for myself and I actually, so this for me started with a health concern as, well. So, I mean, the, the, I have a very, very strong genetic legacy of metabolic disease in our, in our family.

[00:26:46] And so I didn't want to suffer the way that my father had suffered for, for decades before, before he passed. And that kind of influenced me. And now I'm actually looking at that same activity and trying to reframe. Well, it started out of fear. It started out of avoidance. It started out of health. What can it be now? Something I was just, I was just talking to my wife about, about this. And I think Lisa, you probably would relate to this. Actually, what you both would too is,

[00:27:13] I think there are things that you can see on a bike that you can't appreciate in a car or walking or running. Because you're at a certain speed. And so I'm actually fascinated by this idea that you can notice and be inspired by a terrain or the community around you at that different speed than other, than other places. So even,

[00:27:38] even the Pennsylvania countryside looked so different and inspiring at my rate. You know, if I was on a nice descent and just kind of seeing what that, what that looks like, like that farmland looks so different than if I were running it. And I would miss it completely in the car. So sometimes I'll actually do and get inspired by doing, by working through that. I also, and this is to Lisa's part of a people meeting on the way, because look, I'm not a front of the pack competitor by any, by any means.

[00:28:08] And so when I'm out on a course, I'm like, if I'm passing somebody, I'm chatting them up. I'm wishing them a good race. We're talking sometimes. there's people that you'll trade places with to compliment their bike or something. Just to almost create community on the road and just have fun. That to me is, that's really hard to, to find in other, in other places. And I really value that as a, as a notion. And you kind of been in the day to day. That stuff you can do on race day. It's harder to do everywhere. And you know,

[00:28:37] you're riding your bike and they won't even say, you're on your left. Right. So, but like on a, and of course you'll do anything you want. Yeah. I mean, I love the, the image that came to my mind when you were describing what's possible to take in on your bike versus walking, running or in a car. You know, the smells. I have so many memories. I just sent good one that come up from cycling, like in Southern California, smelling lemon trees and the different, you know, foliage and fantastic.

[00:29:06] Plants that just grow in a certain time of year in Southern California and at, at a certain pace, right? That is really, I think there's a, probably a certain chemical cocktail that bathes our brain that allows us to really almost have a picture book type experience moving at a speed, not as fast as a car, but a little bit faster than a walk or run at a certain heart rate. That is really beautiful and taps into a word you said earlier, Lisa adventure. Yeah.

[00:29:36] And it kind of feels like in training, we get to have little adventures every day and what a joy and value that is for our, for our lives. Well, and you know, to also piggyback off of that, it's funny. Like when we think about the lessons we've learned on our site, on our bikes or in the pool or swimming or whatever, how they actually transfer to then how we show up back at work. Right. You know, one of the greatest things that I,

[00:30:05] lessons I've ever learned on my bike was that you don't have to be that front of the pack rider to have that sense of accomplishment at the end of that race. You know, I'm driven by somebody who gets that. I did it. And I feel great that I did it. Yeah. But.

[00:30:28] Competing and racing has taught me that I learn more and I have more accomplishments, more so from the races I lost than the races I want. Mm hmm. And so when you transfer that back on the job, keeping with this mindset theme. Right. And. you know, I remember being, I did a race in Colorado called steamboat gravel, a hundred. I think it was like 140 miles. And I remember saying, I've won and done.

[00:30:58] I will never do this again in my life. Whoever wants to do, you know, 10,000 feet of climbing on gravel, inhale. And. But I remember thinking that while I was racing and then that instant feeling of, OK, I'll do this again in the moment I finished. And thinking back on the job, it's like, well, I think we all are being challenged in some way at work, either with the people we're working with or the projects we're working on or

[00:31:27] however things are evolving around us. And I know for sure I want the people who I'm working with to feel comfortable comfortable to Jeremy, you said, use this word, take, you know, don't be afraid to fail. You know, to try new things, take calculated risks. As long as you're willing to learn from them, not just along the way, but when they're done and then applying it to how you're going to approach work or approach life afterwards.

[00:31:56] And right now the world is changing faster than I, I can't keep up with it, but the world is changing so fast. We're using things like AI and everything that we do. We're, you know, trying to adapt to not just new technology, but new ways of working, new personalities that are entering the workforce, new motivators, right? For people. And so that willingness, don't let, and Jeremy,

[00:32:25] I'm going back to your personal story and thank you very much for sharing that, but that mindset of not to allow fear, right? I mean, it may have got you going in this direction, but now I see it as your opportunity. And you were saying, you know, how you may not be the front of the pack, but you're in the back of the pack or in the mid pack, but it's the learnings that you're getting along the way. And the learnings that you're getting, even if you're not winning,

[00:32:55] that you're then applying to your next race. Yeah. And I think that that's a very important mindset for people when it comes to performance at work, just because you're hitting every single goal, right? Just because you're hitting every task that's outlined in your goals for the year. Well, that doesn't just define performance. Performance is not just what you're doing. It's how you're doing it. And so sometimes projects don't go the way you want them to go, or the work doesn't go the way that you want it to go.

[00:33:24] But as long as you're demonstrating, and I think Holly, you were mentioning the key skills or characteristics that we as athletes learn that we can transfer to the job, resilience, adaptability, right? Seeing, you know, a failure as a great opportunity to learn and grow and help the people come along with you. That's great performance at work that we as talent professionals like Jeremy and myself, we look at that too, because that is important, just like the, what we're trying to achieve. Yeah.

[00:33:54] Fear is a hell of a motivator for sure. And it can get you started, but you know, can it keep you going? And Jeremy will circle back to, to get your answer on that. The speed of change in our environments right now, Lisa, reflecting on something that you said, but the value of reflection can almost be at a contradiction with one another, right? Speed, go, go, go, all the things, AI and tech, especially. So how do we, how can we find those meaningful,

[00:34:22] intentional moments for pause and reflection? I think that's, you know, definitely an opportunity in, in our organizations and how we show up. And I had prepped a question that I'm really interested in hearing your answers, both of you to respond to tapping into your roles at work and how you show up in your HR organizations. And what are we getting wrong when it comes to performance, when it comes to this reflection and this mindful approach at work and kind of what is the big

[00:34:52] opportunity that you both see respectively when it comes to HR and performance? Oh, that's interesting. So the, I kind of feel like if you are lucky enough to be able to lead people and that an old boss, I might used to say that leadership is a privilege. And if you treat it as such things fall into place, right? But I feel like this notion of how to,

[00:35:17] how to create the effects you're looking for within the team or the larger organization, many leaders, even well-trained leaders default to managing individuals, individuals performance, their ability to learn quickly and adjust, which is important. I mean, like that's like, I, I think a lot of talent is the ability to learn quickly and master, right? So we're just the individual absorption, But as a, as a leader, if, if I'm, if I'm really thoughtful,

[00:35:47] then I'm looking at my individuals, as well as the context that we're working in and the community that can help to, to enable whatever my objective is. So like context, I think it was a direct correlation to, to, to athletics work too, is like the course matters, right? So if you're on a pan flat course, it's going to be a very different time than if you're in a super punchy course or it's a full climb, right? So Lisa's,

[00:36:17] Lisa's course in Colorado, right? As a leader, I can influence all three. I can change and help to enable an individual. I can help change the context, help to remove barriers of where folks internally may not be operating in the right way, or externally, if a new challenge, a new competitor enters the market and they're selling something at half the price. like those are things that leaders can help to, to, to look at.

[00:36:44] Community is now becoming much more interesting is how do I leverage my, my own community? It's, I purposely not using the word team because I kind of think about it as like, I want to divorce that from the resources and people that I built relationships with. And now I'll, I'll actually add AI into that notion as well as marshaling, both human and AI resources to get something done in a, in a productive, in a productive way. We are in this very,

[00:37:13] very different world that sometimes in the media is definitely overstated by the way. So I can, I can, we're, we're sure of that. So, you know, part of, part of some of my time is in trying to figure out how to do AI enablement and so forth too. And the one, the one statement that someone else is actually a Cassie Karls, Karl said from, she was formerly from Google. She said, please stop asking what, what AI can do in a process of what humans are left with. Just ask yourself the question,

[00:37:43] what processes deserve to be better? And then engineer great processes from that. That's all a part of this leadership responsibility to make that happen. And I, as a leader, one of the things that I appreciate the most is when I'm working with, with somebody on any team, doesn't have to be my team, but when they also know that they can help change the rules on the context, and they also know that they can build community, I think that lifts their performance too.

[00:38:11] So we're kind of colluding almost to make that happen. Like that's the stuff that's the most fun for me to, to work through. Cause then you sit with a leader and you kind of suggest a couple of these things and then it just turns on light bulbs. And this is all the feedback stuff going on. At least I don't think that resonates at all, but that's kind of what's been going through my head in the past couple of weeks or so. Absolutely. Completely resonates. And, you know, I would add on to that and you mentioned it a couple of times, Jeremy, you know,

[00:38:37] and I'm going to go very personal here with this answer as a leader, as a wife, as a mother, as a friend, and as someone who, like I mentioned earlier, I took on a journey with breast cancer that did not go down the path. I want, but I thought it would go. And I, I had a lot of struggles that were unexpected. My lesson learned when it comes to what's happening around us, there's a lot that's not within the scope of my control, but I have to work around it.

[00:39:06] Time is my most precious commodity. Before I used to take time for granted. I would have a to-do list and I would be multitasking. And I remember even during COVID and being home, having to work remotely, having my two young children, having to school them remotely. I was never fully there. I was stretched very thin across many different priorities.

[00:39:32] And my experience and now how I like to work as a leader and ideally how I hope to inspire the people who not only work with me, but the people who work, you know, all across different organizational cultures. Because I'm, like I said, I'm very passionate about creating a culture where people feel to Jeremy's point, like they're working together to create solutions that truly have an impact on whatever the organization's goals are.

[00:40:00] You cannot do that without making time a priority. So for me, I have put some very strict rules in place for how I show up as a leader. When I'm sitting here engaging in a meeting with anybody, my phone is away, right? Because I learned through my own personal experience that time is the one thing I can't buy more of.

[00:40:28] Time is the thing that if I'm showing to the people that I'm working with or the people I'm training with, that I'm fully engaged in that conversation with them, that I'm taking, that that time that I have on their calendar is truly dedicated to them and that conversation. That's how you build trust. That's how you build great relationships that eventually leads to great solutions

[00:40:57] and great workplace cultures. So I had to go through something that made me reflect on, I did this because I wanted more time with my children, but I also realized I, it took away time from me. So now I'm going to really focus hard on prioritizing time in the workplace and making sure that the people I'm working with know that when that time is with them,

[00:41:26] it is with them. Now, of course, there's always interruptions, but I want the people that I'm working with to know I respect their time. So going back to your question, Holly, you know, we have a lot of things that we're dealing with. We have a lot of changes that are happening and reflection isn't always easy. I have, you know, on my calendar, 15 minutes blocked every single day. And that is my, I call it note taking.

[00:41:55] That is my reflection time. I have every evening. I put, I lock my phones in my dresser drawer up in my room. And from dinnertime to the time that my kids go to bed, that is my time with them. So everybody knows if you're texting me and I don't respond, do not take that personal because I also share with people how important it is for me to take that time. And then when I'm laying in bed at night, many times I'll turn to my husband and say,

[00:42:25] wow, I did not do that right today. Give me feedback. And he now makes that time for me so that we can reflect with each other. You know, the world is moving fast, but time is something that we truly just, you can't trade for. So you have to make it a top priority. So if we're saying that sometimes we don't have time to reflect, or we don't have time to take that feedback and think about how we can apply it, or, hey, somebody came to us with a really great idea, but instead of listening to the idea, we kind of just dismiss them.

[00:42:54] Take a moment to just pause and think about how you can make time a priority in your day on your daily calendar. Whether it be a timer on your phone that's set at a certain time, or, you know, block the 15 minutes on your calendar just to reflect and reset. I think that that's very important. I would subscribe to that newsletter a thousand times. Yes. It's such a great and a powerful example coming from something so personal.

[00:43:23] And I want to say, you know, your intention is now a superpower. Like, that's how I'm hearing that, you know, your power to be so intentional with your time and your intention and what you're focusing on when, why it matters. And to protect that, I mean, that is definitely a superpower. And then you become a mindset ninja in the process, right?

[00:43:49] Because I'm sure you met some resistance of potentially your brain being like, somebody could be texting me, you know, as you start to put this into practice. And maybe not, but just how, right? Because the brain will do what the brain does. But the rewards, right? Increased trust from your team. Better relationships at home. You didn't say that, but I'm inferring, right?

[00:44:15] Because people know when you're locked in, when you're focused with them, it is a vibe, right? And it's powerful. Such a great example. Well, thank you. Yeah. And I appreciate using the phrase lock in too. So that's my two college daughters and my old daughter just graduated. That's their, that's their phrase now. So it's like, you know, I'm locking in, I'm studying, I'm locking, like, it's okay. All right. Whatever you need, whatever words you need to do that. Great. Yeah.

[00:44:44] I'm trying to stay relevant as much as like, yeah. I'm taking away two phrases here. One being Holly's mindset ninja. I like that. Mindset ninja is a good one. Yeah. And Jeremy, I don't know if you realize this, but your like three simple strategies. Yeah. I'm calling it bad performance. Mindset. Mindset. But B, capital B, helpful. Capital A, align with the company strategy. And capital D, do it two times what others expect.

[00:45:14] Love it. So B period, A period, D period, bad performance. Right. I like that. We're going to make that a LinkedIn post. Let's do it together. We're going to make a LinkedIn post on that. We're going to endorse bad performance. And this has been a great conversation. And I'd love to ask you both one last question to reflect on or to share with the listeners. And if you could redesign the modern workplace to be more of what you've learned, could enhance

[00:45:43] people's performance, what you've learned through sport, through your own personal experience, what would that design look like? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the influence of AI is so strong, can be so strong in this. And I actually do believe that we are reinventing the workplace now, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally. So this notion of burnout is huge when it comes to AI.

[00:46:08] So like a non-intentional accidental design would be we're all managing AI until our brain fry. Brain fry is the phrase that people are using until our brains fry. There is a different version of this, which is that we actually were thoughtful about processes and there's some things that humans are going to intervene in. There's some things that AI is going to take out some of the work that people probably should have never been doing to begin with.

[00:46:35] And it'll take out a lot of that stuff as well. That actually gives us time to reflect and to connect and to create value and understanding. And that value could be organizational value. It could be your own personal passion value. It could be lots of different values that we can look at. And that's probably going to be, that would be an idealized future for us as well, that

[00:47:02] it's about the product that you create, not the time that you spend. Much to what Lisa's point from beforehand is there are some times when I'll talk to somebody and they'll be like, I feel bad because I did this in 15 minutes. And they thought that it took me three days as it was at the right 15 minutes use of your time and was the product. Was the product fantastic? Yeah. Yeah. They paid for the product. They didn't pay for the time. The time can be spent in other ways.

[00:47:32] Reflect, go ride your bike for the extra two hours and 45 minutes. And honestly, I think, and maybe because this is so recent to how I've now completely changed how I'm training as an athlete, if I had to design my ideal workplace, really it would be to take into consideration that every person's brain operates differently. You'll never find the carbon copy of yourself at work.

[00:48:00] So how do you create a culture where people are free to think differently, are free to share their ideas, are free to take that time to reflect? How do you build that into the culture? And it could be Jeremy's like, you know, AI is such a powerful tool that we can use to better manage our time and then to use our time differently to have greater impact in different ways.

[00:48:25] And I think that, you know, understanding that people will use these tools and they'll use these tactics very differently and allowing for that to really surface in what the outcomes can be is a wonderful thing. So I personally, I believe that the ideal workplace is one that puts growth and development for

[00:48:48] all employees at the center of its mission and providing opportunities that in this case can be unique and personalized to however that person needs to grow and develop and what kind of learner they are, which I know is quite challenging. But AI is actually giving us some really interesting tools on how we can personalize somebody's growth and development and make it impactful for them.

[00:49:16] So I think we have a lot of opportunity. I think as long as we continue to look at ways that we encourage people to adopt these type of mindsets that we've been talking to this during this hour and also try different things, then the workplace is always going to evolve.

[00:49:40] And we then play a part in being the architects that design and shape how that evolution is going to happen by building the human capital and the capabilities that we know we need, not just now, but for the future. So an ideal workplace really does put the learning, the growth, the success of each and every individual as a top priority for how we will then achieve those business results that we're looking for.

[00:50:10] Powerful as a need to have, not a nice to have. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yes. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you both for your time and energy. I know that our listeners are going to get a lot of value out of this. Thank you for joining me. And with that, we will hopefully stay connected. I need to hear about all the sport things for the rest of the year. Absolutely. Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks, Holly. Thanks, Lisa. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you.