How Running Builds Community and Confidence with Michael Drabenstott

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome back or welcome to the Metta Performance Podcast where we bring stories of high performers getting after in all aspects of work, sport, and life. And today I am honored to have Michael joining us, Michael Drabenstott. Did I pronounce your last name correctly? Well, Drabenstott, S-T-O-T-T, but there are a lot of syllables, so that's okay. Thank you. And I'm really happy to have Michael on the podcast today to introduce himself to the guests. And with that, an intro. Michael.

[00:00:29] Oh, well, thanks a lot, Holly. Appreciate the opportunity to be on today. Yeah, I'm a neighbor of yours right down the street here in the west end of Allentown that have been an active runner since 1999. Also translate that into a lot of distance hiking and even take on some bicycling here and there as some cross training.

[00:00:51] But also my involvement in running has led me into race management and race organization as well, which has also been an eye-opening experience. Yes. And what do you do outside of running? I'm a marketing and public relations consultant working with both nonprofit and some for-profit clients here in the Lehigh Valley and also nationwide.

[00:01:15] And you have experience podcasting yourself, but today I get to interview you and kind of flip the script a little bit, which should be a lot of fun. Most certainly. I enjoy being on either side of the microphone. Yes. Good stuff. And the reason why I wanted to reach out to you and bring you online is because one of the things that impresses me the most about you is your ability to build community.

[00:01:38] And, you know, colloquially, when I first moved to the Lehigh Valley area and started going to your very, very early track workout groups, everybody playfully referred to you as the mayor of Allentown because you have built such a community. So I'd love to just hear from you kind of the backstory. How did you get started? What inspired you to not only get it going, but keep it going?

[00:02:02] Yeah, I think what you're referring to are the track workouts that we have up at the Muhlenberg College track every Wednesday at the late time of 5.15 a.m., which just for the record, we used to start at 5.30, but people complained it wasn't early enough. So we bumped it up to 5.15 because 5.00 a.m. would just be a little too insane. I've actually been fortunate to be up on that track shortly after I picked up running.

[00:02:30] So we're talking about, you know, 2001, 2002. It's a block from my house and we have a relatively small college that welcomes the public on its facilities, which is just a treat. I'm going to do a wonderful job with their athletic facilities up there. So for a while, it was just myself solo on that track. And then other people knew I was doing it and we'd have like one or two people show up for those early morning workouts.

[00:02:59] And then a couple more people started showing up and it was five or six and we would collaborate on whatever those workouts were. And then I think it was the Leslie who heads up the Lehigh Valley Roadrunner said, you've got a pretty decent group there. Would you consider making that one of the weekly group runs for the roadrunners? And I thought to myself, yeah, the track's big enough. We can bring people together.

[00:03:24] We can all benefit from being there at the same time and benefit from the support system that happens naturally when other people are there at the track. And I said, let's do it. And they actually sent me off for a weekend of Roadrunners Club of America level one coaching. You know, even though after years, you know, probably 15 years of running, you pick up a lot of things through reading and talking to people. But I felt like I wanted to have that background, at least, you know, some professional training.

[00:03:53] Did that and we started spreading the word and we grew from, I think, eight or nine people up to 15. And then before you knew it, we were at 20 and then 25 and 30. And now on a typical day, we're pulling between 30 and 40 people at 515 in the morning.

[00:04:10] And as we've done that, we have seen this community grow where people have formed connections with one another based on mutual respect, based on friendship, based on events that they're training for at the same time. You know, we had a group of guys that all decided to trade for one marathon and they were showing up on Wednesday doing their workout and then going out on the weekends and doing their long runs. We have another side group that meets kind of casually for a long run on Saturday.

[00:04:39] So it was really the opportunity to bring people together for a common purpose and for the love of running and then just allowing them to form connections beyond that. Has it been surprising to you to see how sticky it's become, how popular it's become? Yeah, it has been a little surprising, especially given the fact that it's a speed workout. It's meant to be tough.

[00:05:09] You're supposed to put yourself into discomfort, which a lot of people, even if they're runners or cyclists or endurance athletes, there's a level of discomfort that you put yourself in in a speed workout that not everyone can embrace. And we've seen people do that, whether they're running five minute miles or 10 minute miles, which is really great. And I would say we kind of we suffer together and depending, regardless of the speed, everyone might be suffering at the same amount to get progress.

[00:05:37] But the fact that it has grown and people have have stuck with it. Week after week after week, we see that probably a core group of 20 or 25 people showing up and then new people coming in. I think that the good thing about new people coming in is everyone is welcome, regardless of pace, age, gender, size, experience, things like that. And everyone's able to find a place and we see everyone supportive of one another.

[00:06:07] So considering all these positives that are happening, maybe it shouldn't be surprising with how sticky it's been. It's a it's a very welcoming, satisfying, wholesome experience for everyone who's there. Yes. And I could co-sign all of those things. It's a lovely group. And the times that I've dragged myself out of bed, I've never regretted it because it's always been just such a great way to start the day, which makes me think about kind of running and starting your day with a physical challenge, especially something like a speed workout.

[00:06:36] But truly, that can be anything. And as a runner yourself and as a working professional, what do you think it is about starting your day with a challenge that starts you on the right foot? I think it's a it's a couple of different things. I think for me, it gets my my mind and my body going in preparation for the day. I can't imagine not doing something first thing in the morning to kind of get the gears cranking.

[00:07:03] I mean, the alternative would be waking up, having breakfast and coffee and starting to work. There's just there's no momentum that's built. Right. I want I want that momentum. I want that bit of endorphin rush and adrenaline rush from being out there. And I also want the satisfaction of accomplishment where I've done something first thing in the day that makes me feel good. Something that regardless of the distance, I'm proud that I went out and did it.

[00:07:31] And then even more so with something like the speed workouts that we do. And I think also with the speed workouts, considering how many people are there, you just get energized. And you have people who are encouraging you along the way. And I always think that's one of the magical things about running. I mean, how many how many things happen in your life when you have people encouraging you or cheering you like no one's going Holly? That's a hell of an Excel spreadsheet, you know, or not yet. That's a great cup of great cup of coffee. You got this girl. Right.

[00:08:01] But that's part of the running community. It's why people race and we get that on Wednesday mornings out there when you're part of that group. People encouraging you to to keep pushing and keep working hard. And it's really a magical thing. So I think those are the things that kind of get me going in the morning with that run. Yes, I resonate with that myself and have had similar conversations with the clients and athletes I work with is starting your day doing something hard kind of makes everything else a bit easier.

[00:08:30] And it gives you that momentum. You're starting your day with that sense of accomplishment. You know, you're warmed up physically, mentally and ready to go because breakfast and coffee really isn't that much of a challenge. Getting out of that. No, that's the reward. Yes, it is the reward. A hundred percent. Also, it gives you kind of a little sense of certainty for the day where, you know, you're accomplishing something first thing. I'm pretty confident I'm going to get something done otherwise in the day, but it doesn't always happen.

[00:08:56] But it's a way of knowing like, hey, I'm getting this done regardless of what happens after 7, 730 in the morning. I will have accomplished something today. And I think that's really important. Yeah, I like that certainty. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that you have control of. Maybe not the outcome, but that knowing that you can accomplish something that gets your day started right.

[00:09:23] And also, regardless of the intensity of the workout, you are putting yourself into some sense of discomfort. And really, that's what happens in life. It's what happens with uncomfortable situations in business or trying something new or having to give a presentation. So you've already accomplished something in the day. So whatever comes after that is just building on this level of accomplishment that you have. Yes. And that's what I like to refer to as sets and reps.

[00:09:53] Yes. I love it. Just getting stronger with that challenge and overcoming or adding to your list of what you've done, what you've accomplished in the day. And you mentioned work. And I'm curious, in your professional side, how has running allowed you to be your best self at work? I think it's given me the energy and the confidence to really take steps that I might not have ordinarily done. I started running in 1999.

[00:10:21] And in 2003, decided to leave the company I was at and start my own business, along with two partners that came on board to run an ad agency. And, you know, at that time, four years into running, I'd run a couple marathons, done a lot of races. And you had the sense of accomplishment. You've had the sense of progress, too.

[00:10:42] You know, starting as someone that was doing some laps around the block in sweatpants into being part of, you know, larger type races and, you know, winning some age group awards and things like that. And I think that translates to success and the idea of I know what it is to work hard and I know what results can come from working hard.

[00:11:03] So if it was putting in some long hours or really thinking deeply about things, I had the capacity to be able to do that in part because of the running and working out. So I still think it gives you the opportunity and the reason to celebrate things. I think every workout, every race is a celebration. And I think you don't necessarily get that sometimes in business.

[00:11:31] It tends to be a little more, you know, this continuity thing that happens. But I think it forces you to kind of take a step back and realize your accomplishments, assess where you're at, assess where you need to be going, but not forgetting to celebrate along the way. Mm-hmm. Well said. And kind of rewinding back just a little bit, it sounded like running and overcoming challenges allowed you to see what you're capable of. I would say so.

[00:12:00] You know, up until the point I started running, you know, I was working just, you know, the first full-time job that I had for eight or nine years and progressing, doing some things, being visible, you know, learning along the way. But it really wasn't until I picked up running seriously that I think I started kind of rededicating myself and my life to doing things that were more profound and feeling like I could put myself out there and take some risks. You know, every time you enter a race, you're taking your risk.

[00:12:29] You don't know what's on the other side of that, whether it's a 5K or a marathon or people that are doing ultras. You don't know what that outcome is going to be. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:07] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And what you're talking about makes me think of confidence, that sport in a way could be a tool to develop confidence or at least an aspect of confidence, of resiliency. And that confidence can be really quintessential as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, especially when you're getting started. Certainly.

[00:13:33] I mean, when you're in sport, when you're in racing, you're asking your body to do things that it hasn't done before. Mm-hmm. Especially whether you're running a new distance, whether you're running a different location, whether you're, I mean, I like to do, you know, some pretty aggressive hikes, whether, you know, I want to get to a high elevation point or, you know, elevation gains and things like that.

[00:13:56] And being able to accomplish that and get done at the end saying, I did something that a lot of people can't do or even fathom doing, and I'm able to get it done. And I'm able to go out the next day and do it again. And it does give you a sense of accomplishment, a sense of pride in what your body's able to do. And even though we're talking about, you know, physical accomplishments, they don't come without the mental strength.

[00:14:18] And a lot of times in business, it's more mental strength than the physical strength, but it's that combination of the two that does give you that confidence to really take some chances and be a little bold and audacious. Yes. And it's interesting, this confidence, because, you know, in the work that I do with executive clients, so leaders in different types of organizations and industries, confidence is a very consistent skill that individuals want to develop.

[00:14:46] They want to develop a greater sense of confidence, either to hold a room, to pitch ideas so that they can have a greater sense of what they can accomplish themselves. And it's interesting when we look at sport or activity, physical challenge as a way to develop a skill that can be then transferable in a different environment. Yeah.

[00:15:09] And I think that there's a powerhouse combination here of how can we develop somebody's confidence by putting them through something physically challenging and then see if that helps them show up in a different way, in this case, at work. I totally agree. And in that case, every race, every workout is a dress rehearsal for something else in life. I remember going to a presentation skills seminar years ago, one of the best seminars I've ever been to. I think about it all the time.

[00:15:37] And the woman was talking about how you become a good presenter. And she said, when you're presenting, you're really giving a performance. And would you think about going on stage without having rehearsed over and over again? And what she was talking about is when you get up and you want to give a presentation, you have to go through that rehearsal. Well, being a performance athlete or a runner or whatever, every day is a rehearsal.

[00:16:04] Every day is an opportunity to go through this challenge in your mind and get some accomplishment on the other side. And it reminds you that you have to put the work in. You have to do that rehearsal, whether it's preparing for a business meeting or whether it's preparing for a race. And at the other side of that is going to be something positive. Yeah. I think it's amazing and it's beautiful.

[00:16:27] And, you know, one of the reasons why we love, you know, this podcast is to just get this message out more for individuals that, you know, maybe haven't dabbled or pushed themselves physically in a while. Maybe they were a high school athlete and it's been a while and they haven't gotten back into it. I'm just seeing so many opportunities, not only for individuals to leverage sport as a personal and professional development tool, but then also kind of coming back to the track group, that community, right?

[00:16:55] You had mentioned all different ages, all different sizes, shapes, speeds, abilities, but everybody's out there. And what would you just say to somebody maybe in the community that wants to try, but is maybe apprehensive? They might say that, oh, I'm not an athlete or, oh, I'm not a runner, but they're really interested in giving it a go. Hey, well, I would say, you know, if we have 35 people on that track, 35 people were in the exact same position as you were at that time.

[00:17:25] You know, everyone had a first time on that track. I had a first time on that track. You had a first time on that track. Everyone else around there had a first time on that track. Everyone out there had a first run. And for some people, it was at age four or five. For some people like me, it was at age 32, right? Even though I played basketball and did some other stuff leading up to that point. But at some point, it's a first time for everyone.

[00:17:51] And you need to kind of go out there, show a little bit of courage, which kind of goes back to what we're talking about with translating all this to the business world or to life. Have a little bit of courage. And I think part of it is trusting that people at the core are good people. And they all want what's best for you. And they want to celebrate your first time as much as they want to be out there for their workout. We make it a point to recognize people who are there for their first time.

[00:18:21] And I just think it's a really special moment. We all give them a big cheer. And I think everyone makes an effort to try to introduce themselves or say, good job and check in at the end and making sure they feel welcome. And I think there's something really powerful about that. Yes, I would totally agree. You know, celebrating that first step. And I think also it's celebrating as people get into it, it's celebrating the accomplishments of one another.

[00:18:51] And it might be someone breaking a four-hour marathon for the first time. And you might be a 330 marathoner, 315 marathoner. And you see the amount of work that was put in. And you say, I can do that too. I can excel. I think of, you know, one of the runners that's out there that's been a regular, I think two years ago he was a 410 marathoner and he's brought his time down into the 320s. And you look at that and you think, you know, what can I do with myself?

[00:19:21] I don't need to compare myself to him. But I look at the work that that person has put in and say, is there something I can do to step up my game to make myself a stronger or to make me a stronger runner for myself? Or to achieve what I want to achieve. And I think there's something really powerful in seeing other people achieve things. You know, now that I'm getting much older, my PR days are done.

[00:19:46] But I still get a thrill out of watching some of the younger people PR things and remembering what that was like and knowing that together we're all part of making that happen. So we can still live vicariously through the other people that are showing up. Yeah, because you get it. You understand. And it is worth celebrating. And again, that power of community and kind community spirit. And, you know, you were mentioning something that is very integral to the meta method. How we work with clients.

[00:20:15] Meta is Buddhist for loving kindness. And we believe that compassion is a superpower. That it is about celebrating the person versus themselves. And being a little bit better every day in an aspect. Not needing to be the best. It's just being the best you can be. And showing others compassion and kindness to support that community, to support their growth and their evolution.

[00:20:41] Well, I think about one of the gentlemen up at the track who's one of the elder statesmen up there who ran his first marathon, I think, at age 65 or 66. And with his age group qualified for Boston. And just ran Boston this last April. And I think that was on a Monday when, you know, Boston Marathon joining. He came to the track that Wednesday with his jacket on. And after I did my little introduction and here's the workout, he wanted to say something.

[00:21:09] And he just thanked everyone there for supporting him and encouraging him on his journey and being there for every run. I mean, there were tears in his eyes. And there were tears in all of our eyes. And I think in some way we feel like we ran that Boston Marathon with him. And it's, you know, the sense of community and the sense of people supporting one another and what you can get out of this group activity that really stuck with me coming out of that. Yeah. It was a lot more powerful when I was up there by myself. Right. Yeah.

[00:21:39] But to think about, I love the origin story that it was just you, you know, 26, 27 years ago. Yeah, it was probably, yeah, I'd have to go back and check my training logs, probably 2000, 2001. It was, yeah, just me up there and sometimes a handful of other people and people in and out. And yeah, then it kind of grew from there. But intention, consistency, community, kindness. Yeah. And then look at what can grow over time. That's right.

[00:22:08] And the other thing about that is sometimes, like you said, people are somewhat new to running and want to get stronger. And as part of what I learned through the RRCA, I prescribe a workout. And I would say half the people follow the workout and other people follow their own workouts. I know you had some of your athletes up there and, you know, they do what you tell them, right? Which is great. And other people, you know, it's tough to prescribe a workout for people that are running a marathon and some people that are just running 5Ks.

[00:22:38] So I try to create a little bit of a balance in the middle and tell people how they can adjust. But if they're getting private coaching or they're following a plan, they still show up because they want to be part of this community. And I think there's a sense of accountability also that you want to be there and be seen. And also being seen sometimes can motivate you to push a little bit. You know, sometimes we all feel like slacking a little bit. And it's tough to slack if you've got 35 other people watching it. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

[00:23:06] And that accountability of showing up, that expectation of being seen and then just feeling, you know, I want to say vibe from other people, from other people out there working hard. It's inspiring for sure. And also regardless of the weather, you know, you have some people saying, oh, you know, it's heavy rain. It's nasty. It's cold. It's whatever. Whatever. I'm going to be there.

[00:23:31] And even if I'm nursing an injury, I'm going to be there to make sure you're there and you're going to have a safe workout. So, yeah, we've been out in torrential rainstorms when it's 45 degrees. We were out two years ago when it was minus five Fahrenheit and the wind chill was minus 15, which in hindsight, we probably shouldn't have done an entire workout. We probably should have kept it to two or three miles. But we got it done. Right.

[00:23:57] Or when it's, you know, really hot and humid, which is certainly not my favorite weather, but you got to be there. And I think if people know that I'm going to be there and if they are not there the previous week, I'm not going to, you know, guilt them or anything like that. But I'll say, hey, where were you last week? You know, we missed you. And most of the time people have a good excuse. But if the excuse was I was raining a little too much, not so much. No compassion. Right. For bad weather.

[00:24:24] I always like the saying, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad gear. That's exactly right. Or a bad attitude. Or a bad attitude. Yes. Even better. That's kind of how we invite people on the Facebook group. I say all paces welcome, positive attitudes mandatory. You can't show up to the track and have a piss poor attitude. You don't even want to be out there. Like if you're showing up at 515 for a track workout, you better want to be there or else it's not going to go well for anyone.

[00:24:54] Right. Yes, exactly. Great, great motto. And we've talked about a lot of kind of facets of behavior, of intention, consistency, community, you know, challenge. And I'm curious, when you think of performance for you, you know, and you can go, you can answer big or small. You can stay in the running lane or you can stay in the life lane. When you think of performance and what running or sport has taught you about what sustainable performance is, how would you define that?

[00:25:24] How do you kind of conceptualize performance? I would say it's the capacity to push your body beyond what you might not have thought was possible. And your body and mind, since they kind of work in tandem. And I relate that more to more of my distance hiking that I've done. I usually do with my brother where maybe not in the ultra world, but in my world, it's pretty, pretty nutty things over the years.

[00:25:54] Some, you know, just long day hikes with a lot of elevation gain, you know, rocky terrain, things at elevation and going out again the next day and doing it and see how much we can, we can fit in. And it's really about building that capacity and that confidence to, to know that you can get it done. I mean, you don't, you don't embark on a, on a 30 mile point to point hike or a trail run or an ultra run, unless you believe in yourself that you can get it done.

[00:26:22] You know, when you're on the presidential traverse, there's no one going to stop at mile 20 to haul you back to the trailhead. So it's, it's the ability to get things done and that, that confidence that comes with all the training that you've done, both the consistent training day in and day out and some of the harder workouts and how you've trained for a particular event that, that give you that confidence to, to get things done.

[00:26:48] And, and know that you can break through barriers, whether it's, you know, a couple miles of pain to get to the other side of that, or, you know, whether it's mustering enough capacity to get over, you know, one more climb or another thousand feet to get, get over before you get the, the downhill. Mm-hmm. With, and the pretty traverse, yes, coming to my mind, that is New Hampshire? That's, yeah, New Hampshire, the residential mountains. Yeah. Very, very gnarly terrain there.

[00:27:17] If no one is familiar, any listener is not familiar, but yes, very, very challenging for sure. Over your career, what has allowed you to maintain your performance? So again, we were talking about just running, for example, you know, the track group going on well over 20 years strong. That's not a fluke, right? That's not random. That's something that you've developed and you've developed over time and you continue to be able to do this well.

[00:27:45] What are some kinds of tips, trends, techniques that have allowed you to sustain your performance over the long haul? Are you talking about my personal running performance or? Yeah. Yeah, for me, it's a couple of things. Consistency is one and just staying out there, you know, for a while it was, you know, six days a week of the running. I cut that back to five after I got into my like late 40s or 50s just to give myself an extra day of rest.

[00:28:14] But being consistent with that mileage to the extent my body will let me a couple more little injuries now here and there. But, you know, we'll be smart and get over those. Part of that is, especially as you get older, it's being smart and listening to your body and knowing when it needs a little bit more rest, that the body's ability to repair itself doesn't happen as readily as it happens when we were in our 30s and 40s.

[00:28:38] So being able to take a little bit of a step back and having that patience, knowing that a little bit of time to let your body recover is going to be more productive than pushing through. Little things to me like cross training, you know, core training, strength training to balance out the body. So it's not just running, running, running, hiking, hiking, running, running. Really important. And also for me, especially as a tall person, is stretching. I usually do 15 to 20 minutes of yoga in the morning, especially focusing on the legs.

[00:29:07] And the things, hamstrings, you know, things that are in the back of my legs that attach to my back. It's really common for tall people to get back problems. And one of the reasons with that is because the hamstrings are so tight and running and hiking really forces those to work hard and increase some tightness back there. And then foam rollers, stick, massage, anything to keep the muscles healthy and flowing with one another. You start learning these things over time.

[00:29:36] And then along with that, it comes nutrition. It's being smarter about what you eat. You know, I'm not the, you know, a saint when it comes to eating. But I think about how I eat now compared to how I eat in my 20s and 30s. And there's a huge difference. And what about fun? How have you found ways to keep yourself engaged and motivated towards something that maybe from the outside looks completely the same throughout the years? Yeah. Fun is one aspect of it.

[00:30:06] And I think having fun with the people that you're running with, especially on Wednesday. And you've been there. There are several witty people. I mean, you hear things. Yeah. During the course of running. You know, runners are willing to share a lot of stuff. That's true. My wife, who's a competitive tennis player, she doesn't believe about some of the stuff that we talk about as runners. You know, various bodily functions. She goes, we would never talk about that. But things like that that just make for fun and joking.

[00:30:37] That makes things worthwhile. The other thing that does it for me is just the amount of physical beauty that I've been able to see over the years. And sometimes that's running down in Allentown's Lehigh Parkway on a morning and seeing the bald eagle come by or the blue heron or seeing deer and just seeing the sun filter through the leaves and glisten off the water.

[00:31:06] And you just get this very grounded, fulfilled feeling. I had one this past weekend doing the Trexler Nature Preserve Loop, doing a power hike up there. And I came into this meadow area and it was just also like light rain was coming down. There weren't any people out. And there was this field or meadow of just pink and purple flowers that I was just surrounded by. And it was spectacular.

[00:31:31] And I've been able to run on the, you know, the rim of the Grand Canyon and just have that all to myself or to run in Yosemite Valley and, you know, places up on trails in New Mexico or even being alone on the lakefront trail in Chicago. Which you're not alone for too long out there in the morning. There's always some other nuts out there.

[00:31:56] But things like that are just very fulfilling to me that I can reconnect with nature and have these experiences, especially first thing in the morning. That just, it just fills my heart. Moments of awe. Entirely. Entirely. And some of those are, again, early morning hikes where, you know, to be in the Grand Canyon and experience sunrise or to be, you know, hiking.

[00:32:23] Yeah, just the things I've seen over the years that I can just go back to in my mind whenever I want to be there. That has become that entrenched in my heart and my soul. It's just a wonderful, wonderful thing. And so that's the aspect that gives me, I think, the most joy. But, you know, fun is part of it as well. Yeah, it's fun is part. I mean, I love that description. It's very artful.

[00:32:47] And, yeah, the moments of awe, that joy, the wonder, just the fulfillment that you get from recognizing how much beauty, how much, you know, there is to be grateful for. Right? When you get up and you experience these little slices of life right where you are many times. Right?

[00:33:09] I know you just got back from a trip abroad, but I know a lot of the memories that I have in my mind that keep me motivated or those moments of awe, they're from where I live. They're from in my community. They're often not in moments of travel. They're, you know, where my feet carry me frequently. Well, and I think if we wait to get those moments of awe and inspiration, if we wait until we travel to get that, it's going to be a very scarce existence.

[00:33:38] We need to find and appreciate the things that we can see that are right around us. And most of that is, hey, where we're at. You know, whether it's running down the street into a park or, you know, heading a couple miles away to do something. You know, if we can't find it in that, we're going to live a pretty sad existence. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a big life lesson of, you know, recognizing just how much we have in the present moment right in front of us.

[00:34:06] And I think the other, I mean, you mentioned experiencing it as well. I've never run with earbuds. I don't run with the phone. I don't need to take pictures of something if I'm experiencing it and seeing it that deeply. It's going to be up in here. Mm-hmm. And that's going to be a more powerful image than anything that I can put on my computer. And I think also when you're interacting with the sights and the sounds of everything, you're also engaging the nose to smell things.

[00:34:34] And I think it's important to have all those senses available and even the sense of touch and feel to feel your feet hit the ground. And what that ground is like, whether it's soft, whether it's hard, whether it's uneven. And it's this entire sensory experience. And I can't imagine running with headphones on and having some other experience in my head. There's a time for that. It's pretty much when I'm driving and want to get my head off of it, right?

[00:35:02] I don't want that out on a trail or on a run. I want to hear my footsteps. I want to hear the birds. Yeah. I want to hear other people around me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're describing something very meditative. Just a full awareness and recognition of your senses and what's around you. Entirely. That's the perfect way to put it. And I think it makes you feel more human as well.

[00:35:27] I mean, the senses that we have are what make us feel human, what makes us recognize our place in the world. And I want to be able to feel that to the fullest extent that I can. Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. Like, we're just talking about running and air quotes just. But we're already in this conversation recognizing that it's a powerful tool for connection, for community, to build confidence, to build presence and awareness, gratitude, fulfillment.

[00:35:57] I mean, I would want to say, why aren't more people running? Why isn't everybody running? You know, my friends at Aardvark, our friends at Aardvark Running Store would say everybody moves. Right. And truly, everybody has access to develop these tools, these experiences. Well, and the things that, you know, we're talking about running or just running. But a lot of the things I'm talking about, you don't need to be a runner. You could be a cyclist. You can be out walking.

[00:36:22] You know, if you have mobility issues, you know, if you're, you know, in an adaptive device or some sort of wheelchair, you can still experience sights, sounds.

[00:36:59] Absolutely. conversation, I'm really curious, what is on your heart and mind, if anything, for the running community in the future for the next 26 years? Do you have any goals? What, what, if you could create it, what would you want to have happen? I haven't, boy, I haven't really thought about that. And maybe I need to think about that getting done with it. I think, you know, specifically with the,

[00:37:24] with our Wednesday group, I'd love to see that continue to grow. I think the more people that are there, the more connections that can be formed. And, you know, that I think the more people that are there too, you kind of have this group level of support where everyone's, you know, pulling for you. And, you know, it's not just maybe a family member at home or a spouse or something like that. It's, it's the 50, 60, 70 people that are showing up every Wednesday that want to see you do your best and hear that you succeed. And I think there's something really, really important about

[00:37:54] that. The other thing I'd like to be able to do, and I was able to accomplish this a couple of years ago when I restarted the marathon in the Lehigh Valley with a DNL race fest, bringing that back is providing people with more opportunities to get more of those fulfilling experiences that have meant so much to me. And sometimes that would be being a race director or creating a race or adding to it,

[00:38:20] finding new ways for people to get the experience that they want to experience what it is to be human and to get some of those sensory experience. So not quite sure what some of those are yet, but I'm, I'm sure they'll, they'll get to me in some time. The race experiences, being a race director is just so fulfilling. You know, we have a, in our neighborhood, you know, you're part of our committee, a St. Patrick's race, you know, that draws almost a thousand people. And you look at the

[00:38:47] smiles that are on people's faces when they get done with that. And how many opportunities do we have in life to make that many people happy over the course of an hour? It's really, it's a privilege to be able to do that. It's really an honor to think that you can do something like that. That's so meaningful to so many people. Yes, it is an amazing 5k, an amazing experience, a great way to start the day, a great, you know, moment of the weekend around St. Patty's Day, such a great community

[00:39:17] turnout. And I mean, 1000, you know, around 1000 runners for a 5k in a relatively small, you know, community, small, medium sized community, that's not nothing. And, you know, even more people spectating. It's really, yes, and everybody enjoys themselves. It's really just such a highlight. And kind of even that transition moment, the time of year that it occurs of like, we're out of the

[00:39:41] winter here in the Northeast, almost into hopefully spring arrival. And so it is just a lovely time of year and a great attribute to the community. Yeah, that would say to people that are listening, also, you don't need to take on the responsibility of being a race director to get some of that. I would encourage people, you know, if they're involved with racing in any sort of sport or any

[00:40:05] sort of activity to volunteer, and to be part of the activity, I would say for every two or three events that you participate in, you should volunteer for one. And sometimes it's being something as simple as a race marshal who has a very important responsibility. Sometimes it's being on a race committee. Sometimes it's at the day before it did pick up or something like that. Sometimes it's at finish line, but there are so many things that need to get done. And, you know, I know a lot of race

[00:40:33] directors struggle to get volunteers. Now look at how many people are in races. And, you know, if you have a 400 person race and those people are volunteering every two or three races, well, you should have a body of 130 volunteers or 150 volunteers that are ready to run. The numbers aren't quite there. So I would just, I would encourage people to make sure you're giving back and you can feel some of that joy because you're part of delivering that to everyone that's out there. Yeah, of creating the experience for someone to have a memory

[00:41:02] that they can maybe carry with them for a lifetime. That's right. I would say race directors aren't in the race business. We're in the forever memory business. Oh yeah. I love that. Forever memory business. Yes. I kind of, you know, have some of that mindset as a coach as well. That is one of the big drivers for me as a coach is I'm helping somebody create that memory that they can take with them. Right. And it is a forever memory, you know, for any of us that have, you know, you remember the first time

[00:41:32] you remember your first half marathon, you remember your first marathon. You, if you're an ultra runner, you remember that, that first one and to be able to provide that experience to people and give them the opportunity to push themselves and get that sense of accomplishment. It's really something special. It's really something powerful too. Especially the longer the race is, the more powerful it is. And you sit there at a finish line of a marathon or ultra and see people coming across that are just in tears.

[00:42:01] And to know that you were responsible for helping deliver that, it's like, whoa, that's really profound. Yes. Yeah. It's so great. Again, sport, not just running all aspects, all kinds of sports. It's just, it's such a great way to experience life, learn more about yourself, connect to your community, meet other people in your community and yeah, see, see what you've got. Might as well start the day with a challenge and keep challenging yourself because truly why not?

[00:42:30] Yeah. And to your point earlier about the track workout and about showing up the first time, you're guaranteed that everyone there has a similar interest. Yes. You walk into a social situation, you're not sure what you're going to get, but at that track at 5.15 in the morning, you know, you have something in common with everyone there and it's something really meaningful that, that you share. And I think that's a really important

[00:42:57] welcoming sign. Yes. And as we kind of transition, thank you so much for your time and sharing your thoughts and insights. Before I ask you the last question, I will prompt you to think about the kind of goals that you'd like to see for the running community here and in Allentown over the next, you know, 10, 20 years, because I'm not sure if you acknowledge this, but you are influential in the running community here. You know, people do, do look to you and are inspired by you and what

[00:43:26] you've created. So, you know, I will circle back and get your thoughts on that. But to anybody that might be listening that, you know, is curious about how to maintain or sustain a life in sports and stay balanced as a husband, as a father, as a business person, what kind of advice would you like to share? I think the keyword that you said is balance. It's making sure that you can, you can embrace all these different identities, you know, yourself as a business person and as a,

[00:43:54] as a spouse and as an athlete, and also as an individual, you know, never forgetting time for yourself and making sure you keep all those in balance and trying not to focus on anything too heavily. That's the most important thing. It's, you know, we're, we have different identities. I always say, you know, I'm a, I'm an individual. I'm a, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a brother,

[00:44:19] and I need to find ways to express all those things. And sometimes it happens extensively. And if I'm a business person, I'm, you know, here for six or eight hours a day doing that, but it's making sure that I'm very intentional about, about embracing each of those identities and keeping them in balance throughout. Also get, get plenty of rest, eat well. I mean,

[00:44:43] take care of yourself. Right. And I think sometimes as endurance athletes, we tend to push through and it's really important that we give our chance or ourselves the opportunity to recover. And again, eating well, sleeping well, and all those things, realizing that there's going to be some sort of sacrifice along the way. And the most important thing you have for all those identities is your physical and your mental health. The nucleus. Yes. Having kindness and compassion for yourself

[00:45:11] Right. And for others to not need to do it all at the same time, but to balance. Yeah. And I want to say one other thing before I forget with the, you know, like 10, 15 years for the running or athletic community, one of the things I'm really focused on is getting trails connected in the Lehigh Valley. So that would be, you know, a 10 or 15 year focus in like getting the DNL trail connected north of Allentown through the Lehigh Valley and getting other trails connected to give

[00:45:40] people opportunity that they can go out and go however long they want, whether it's half a mile or 15 miles or 50 miles or a hundred miles and do so in a, on a safe, well-maintained trail. And one that's connected that gives them different transportation opportunities. That's more of a, of a broader thing, but that's, that is my focus. Like next 10 or 15 years, it's finding ways to work with elected officials and lobbying on behalf and doing what you can to get these things connected as much

[00:46:10] as possible. So I do have something in my mind. It just took me a, well, that's, that's great. I'm so glad that you shared and let us know how we can support you and, and that platform and that initiative, because that's a great vision. And, you know, I'm so happy that what started for you solo over 20 years ago has brought you to this place where now you can think about creating an infrastructure for people

[00:46:34] that you will never meet. Right. And it's a, it's a generational legacy that we're creating with some of these trails. You know, once, once they're built, they're there to be maintained, they're there to be used and they're there to be enjoyed. And that's really what we're looking to provide is, is opportunity. And it's, I would say it's quadruple infrastructure, it's transportation infrastructure, it's healthcare infrastructure, it's social infrastructure, and it's like connection

[00:47:01] with the natural environment type of interest infrastructure that provides so many benefits. And I think in the Lehigh Valley, we're a little bit behind. I think we have a lot of assets that are there, but compared to other communities I've been to in the U S and over in Europe and even up in Canada, we're a little bit behind. And I don't think people know what they're missing until we provide it. And they'll say, Oh my God, where, where was this all our life? We, we love this. And it's only going to be get more momentum. So I'm really excited about that opportunity and kind of working

[00:47:28] behind the scenes to, to get those things done. Yeah. Good work. Yeah. And a great conversation. Again, Michael, thank you so much. Would you like to share any resources for anybody listening, if they want to learn more about you or the runs from LVRR? Yeah. If anyone listening is in the greater Lehigh Valley or is visiting the Lehigh Valley, if you go to LVRR.org and click on group runs, you can find out about our Wednesday group or some of the other groups that happen. Yeah. We'll put a

[00:47:57] plug in for a West end St. Pat's 5k.com for the West end St. Patrick's 5k. And then also, again, I'm really big supporter of the DNL trail. So Delaware and Lehigh and then race.delawareandlehigh.org for race fest, full marathon, half marathon run, half marathon walk, marathon relay, a bunch of different ways to take part in the middle of November, great time of year here, nice and cool

[00:48:25] and flat course for people that want to fast time. I highly recommend it. Amazing. Thank you again for the time. And I'm sure this conversation will be great to so many listeners. And I will see you maybe at the track at 515 soon. I'll drag myself out there again. We'll be there regardless of the weather. But Holly, thanks for having me on. It was a real joy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.