072: Vertical Leadership - Leading from Alignment, Not Reaction

[00:01:08] Hey, what's going on everybody? David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners. We are back with a brand new episode, brand new guests, and I cannot wait to dive into this great topic about leadership today. We've been talking about the, you know, AI and all going on in the technology right now in the world of business over the last couple of episodes.

[00:01:32] And now we are back with a new topic and something that I love to talk a lot about is leadership. So I have the privilege to have Willie Weiber on. Willie, welcome and how are you? Oh, you gotta hit the unmute button. Rookie mistake. That's alright. Welcome. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the invite.

[00:02:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we were talking before we came on live. And so we were connected through a mutual friend, writing books, and we started talking about that. And then we said, hey, you should come on and talk about leadership. And so we're gonna get into this topic with you. So how was your mother's day? How was your weekend?

[00:02:22] It was good. Oh, I have my children are all grown. And so it was nice to have them all in one room with the grandkids. And so it was really nice. Absolutely. And you're down in Texas, right? In Texas. So the weather's good right now.

[00:02:36] Yeah, definitely. So for those, you know, listening to this who are not familiar with your work, your background, if you want to just kind of share a little bit about your, your journey and kind of what, what you wanted to do when you were younger, and if that aligns with what you're doing now.

[00:02:55] I guess sort of, honestly, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a mom. I want to have my own family. And I wasn't all that sure I was prepared for that. So I went to school and I got graduate degrees in family studies, and family ecology. And from there, I thought I was going to be in academia. But I thought this was a unique story.

[00:03:19] But the more I talked to learning and development folks, the more common this story is, you start in academia, then you transfer into learning and development. And from there, you gather a lot of skills, a lot of knowledge, a lot of right certifications.

[00:03:37] And with time, you start to learn how to apply them and to synthesize them and to use them all in a larger scale, as opposed to just individually when you first learn those skills. And so once I got there, I started to recognize that a lot of the leaders that I was working with, has some things in common.

[00:04:03] And I found that I was actually pretty good at getting them to recognize some of the things that they could be doing differently. And that's how I ended up leaving corporate and going into just coaching. And I've been doing this about two years, and I'm really enjoying it.

[00:04:20] Good. No, that's, that's great. And I asked everybody this about their journey in their career, when it comes to advice you've received, and something that might have been, you know, some of the biggest, you know, in, you know, in your situation, your biggest advice you've received, you know, what was that? And what, where was that in your career?

[00:04:46] It was early. It was early. It was in, in, at the university when I was working at the university. And my mentor told me that if I was ever the smartest person in the room, I needed to find another room because there was no room for growth in that room.

[00:05:03] Okay. I like that. I like that. I, I, I definitely believe in that, you know, and I always am curious when, when I ask people that question, what, what comes out and what they have had from, from, you know, different advice, uh, you know, tools and things that they've, they've had along the way. So, um, well, great. So we are, we are live on LinkedIn and YouTube.

[00:05:26] Uh, Speakeasy HR is a part of the work defined podcast community. Also recently joined the brand new HR channel on Roku and Amazon fire TV. So you can watch and catch up on all things HR with the HR channel. Um, brand new blogs out there. I've had many recent, uh, blog posts from previous guests on Speakeasy HR.

[00:05:52] So check those out voices outside of mine on the blog have been great to hear from previous guests coming on and, and talking on their topic, but then also keeping in touch and, uh, bringing that to the, to the website. So speakeasyhr.com to, uh, to check that out. So, um, all right. So we're going to play the envelope icebreaker game, Willie. So as we transition, all you got to do is think of a number, uh, one through 15, and then we'll see what's in there.

[00:06:22] So hold on one second. All right. What she got one through 15, five. All right. Cinco de Mayo was just last week.

[00:06:43] All right. What song instantly puts you in a good mood, no matter what? Don't worry. Be happy. Ooh, I remember that song when I was like young and I was like every day, every day I'd go to school. I think it was like kindergarten or first grade. I would, I would cry, I would ball going to school. And then my, my dad would like play that song or it was, you know, on TV or, um, so it, I remember that song way back.

[00:07:12] Way back when. Yes. And I was on the other side of that scenario where I was the parent telling my children.

[00:07:20] Right. Oh, that's great. Well, good. Well, um, we have more, uh, rapid fire questions. These are, uh, from your topic. I try to bring in some quick response questions as we kind of start going into this, this topic with you. So, uh, rapid fire alignment or speed, which gets sacrificed too often? Alignment. Reacting as a habit or a choice?

[00:07:51] Uh, reacting as a habit or a choice. Uh, I would say that it is a choice. Okay. It's a habit, but then it becomes a choice because once you know what the habit is, that makes sense? Yep. Yep. Did you connect all those dots? I did. I did. One word that defines an aligned leader. Um, intentional. Okay. More dangerous overthinking or overreacting?

[00:08:19] Overreacting. Overthinking slows things down, but overreacting totally derail the whole system. Okay. Finish this great leaders pause before they. Act. Act. All right. Got to give you the mini, mini air horn for those. Those are, uh, this is a limited edition. One of one, uh, speakeasy HR, mini air horn. So, um, thanks for playing rapid fire and the envelope icebreaker.

[00:08:46] So, uh, just a few messages from our sponsor payroll partners, and then we're going to dive into your topic about vertical leadership. So hold on one minute. Finding a new employee takes time and money. For one position on a single job board, you could easily spend a minimum of five to $10 a day advertising a job post. It's worth noting that the average time it takes to hire a new employee is 36 days. However, it can take longer than that.

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[00:10:05] We would love to hear about your situation and see if we can help you design, customize, build, support a platform that will work better. So payroll partners dot net or look me up on LinkedIn and be happy to connect. So Willie, we started talking about your topic and what you were bringing to Speakeasy HR. And we came up with this vertical leadership leading with alignment, not reaction.

[00:10:31] And so we've kind of gone through a couple of rapid fire questions about this topic. And I'm really excited to kind of hear your viewpoints and your reaction to some of these questions and just sharing some of your experience with everybody. So let's start simple. What does vertical leadership actually mean in practice? I thought you said simple.

[00:10:57] Actually, the simplest way to, I think, give you an idea of exactly what vertical leadership is, is it's a metaphor that everybody uses when they talk about this. And it's the smartphone. And so horizontal leadership is kind of like when you are adding apps, right? You're adding skills. You're you're now able to do different things, right?

[00:11:22] Because of those apps and vertical leadership, on the other hand, is completely updating the whole the whole operating system. Right. How you see things, how you view things and and the way you make decisions based on that. OK. OK. So see, that was that wasn't a very good question. OK. OK. So how can leaders tell when they're operating from alignment versus reacting in the moment?

[00:11:52] Emotion. I think that that's really the key. Alignment. It gives you that opportunity to take a step back, look at the bigger picture. It's the whole idea of vertical leadership is based on systems theory, right? On a systemic thought process, which is great because I'm a systems theorist. Family systems. That's where my background is.

[00:12:18] Spent a lot of time with good old Ewe Bronfenbrenner and his concentric little rings and and how people develop and expand their their knowledge and their awareness. And it's a lifetime process. It's not something that you can develop immediately because you have to have those skills. And usually people do have those skills, become experts. Then they start moving into leadership.

[00:12:43] But a lot of leaders get stuck in that expert area and don't move past it. Yeah. OK. So what typically triggers reactive leadership in high performing environments? There's really, you know, it's interesting because there's there's this goes along with the Myers-Briggs, which I'm a Myers-Briggs practitioner.

[00:13:07] And and so there's there's great triggers when you look at specific personalities. Right. And so there's the trigger of whether or not you are challenging my authority or my sense of expertise. And that usually I see. You get that feeling like all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute. Right. And then it blocks everything else, you know, and you're just going to react to that.

[00:13:36] Others are triggered by relationships or feeling like you are questioning whether or not they care about you, whether or not you trust them, whether, you know, those things. And then there's those that have fall into the values and belief system and whether or not you are challenging them from that perspective. And so each of those reacts differently.

[00:14:01] And the goal is to understand, first of all, what your trigger is. How you can recognize that feeling that's right about to take over and how do you look at that and go, OK, wait a minute. What reaction is actually going to be best in this situation? Well, I don't want to react. I want to respond. So in order to respond, now I need to look at this from my own worldview.

[00:14:29] Ideally, a vertical leader is going to be looking at their principles, their value system and their moral compass in making decisions. And interestingly enough, it's the same whether you're leading a family or leading a team, an organization. The process is still the same. And people tend to react differently and they look for closure in different ways. That's the key, understanding yourself.

[00:14:58] What do I need from my team, from my CEO, from whoever it is you're interacting with? What is it that I need to feel closure in this so it doesn't create resentment and I don't carry it on into other interactions that we'll have? Yeah. Yeah. Organizations need solid leaders. They need to develop solid leaders. Absolutely.

[00:15:23] And it really is what will develop a team, the culture and why people decide to stay at a company, why they decide to leave a company. So when it comes to that, you know, what are the consequences on teams and culture when leaders consistently operate in reaction mode? Actually, I took a little liberty of adding a couple of notes here because this is really important and I knew it would come up.

[00:15:52] But the consequences is really the culture, like you just said. Right. You're you're developing a culture and like to call it whiplash. Right. That emotional whiplash. And it's the instability that you don't know which CEO is going to walk in that door today. Right. And so you're bracing for whatever's going to happen and whatever, whoever this person is that that walks in and then you can never predict that.

[00:16:20] And so those inconsistent expectations rattle you and it makes it really difficult to to work in that type of environment for teams. And unfortunately, what tends to happen is that it ends up creating a fear based work environment. And what happens when people are afraid? They're less likely to be honest. They're less likely to take risks because failure is not an option.

[00:16:50] And it makes it stifles growth, essentially. Yeah. Right. And I think everybody's probably had an experience in working in a team that didn't function all that healthily. And it always goes back to the leader. Yep. Yeah.

[00:17:09] And you can read all the books you can and you're still going to have to really learn how you're going to be a leader in the environment you're in because you can be a leader in one organization, then go to the next organization. And you're going to have to be a different kind of leader, potentially. Yeah. You have to learn to lead the people that have been entrusted to you. And they're all going to be different, just like your kids. They're all going to be different. Yep. Right.

[00:17:37] There's not one formula to work with them. One thing that I have noticed is that one thing that the leaders that struggle with. Honestly, I've never met a leader that's not intelligent. Right. It's not a lack of intelligence. It's more a lack of self-awareness and around the triggers. But there's other things, too. It's, you know, what is it that I truly believe? What is I start with with new clients?

[00:18:06] I'll say, you know, what is your leadership philosophy? And I usually will get a blank stare. Hmm. Hmm. And so that's it. Well, you know, personally, for me, when I was in learning and development, right, in a corporate setting, my leadership philosophy was all about development.

[00:18:28] And so when somebody failed, when somebody screwed up, whatever you want to call it, right, it would be betraying my philosophy if I didn't look at that as a teachable moment. Right. And so then that has to affect how I'm going to react. And the environment that I'm going to create. And once you come up with that, then the next question is, so is that really how your team runs? Yeah.

[00:19:00] I love that. I love that. And it's something that I always am curious. Most people don't ask it in interviews about leadership or about the manager styles. And I generally tell people when I'm talking to people personally about finding jobs or when I go to, you know, job search focus groups we have in our community.

[00:19:23] I'm like, if you are trying to find the right fit, you know, within an organization, you have this opportunity to go into a new position with a new company. You know, you're trying to interview them as much as they're interviewing you. And you can maybe meet the manager in the interview. But are you going to know, like, how that manager actually leads and manages? Probably not. So you're going to have to ask, right? You're going to have to act.

[00:19:48] And if you can align your questions in the interview correctly and take that opportunity in that time with that person or several, it's going to help you learn more about the culture, the environment. Right. Like really see if it's going to be a company you want to work for. So. Absolutely. And just, you know, let's ask behavioral questions when we interview. Well, I think that as a potential, right, new employee, I think a behavioral question is a really good one.

[00:20:17] You know, what is the manager's reaction when X, Y, and Z happens? Right. And that'll be really telling. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I, I, I've heard people leave jobs because of the managers and it's one reason why they leave. So. So we are live on LinkedIn and YouTube. If you are watching and have a question for Willie, just chime in to the chat. Would love to hear from you.

[00:20:45] If you have a question, others might be thinking the same one. So don't hesitate to throw those out. If you are a leader or if you're trying to be a leader, this is an opportunity to talk to a leadership coach and, and get some insights from, from Willie. So, so next question, Willie. So how does a leader define their alignments? You know, what are they aligning to? Um, they're principles. Right. First, you have to know what they are.

[00:21:14] I mean, you have to, what are my, do I have principles? Um, and, uh, so that's really important. Understanding again, self-awareness always goes back to self-awareness. Um, and, uh, your values, your, your moral compass. Um, this is, so my, my, um, coaching practices, uh, rooted in, in Christian, um, beliefs and principles and biblical principles.

[00:21:39] And so it's always the easiest way, uh, to, to say, you know, well, what's your moral compass? Well, ideally, right. You know, where it comes, it's vertical. It's really easy way to say, right. Vertical. Because it comes from above you. Well, even if you're not looking at it from a Christian perspective, it's still coming from above you. It's bigger than you. It's your principles. It's, it's, uh, it's your honor. And, um, again, vertical is going to be more reacting to the situation.

[00:22:08] It's going to be more about, um, the chaos, right? The noise. And it's really difficult to, to function in that setting and do it well. Yeah. So what's one practical way that a leader can pause and reset before reacting? Pause. Pause. Right.

[00:22:32] So, um, when, when you look at, uh, vertical leadership, they say like 80 to 85% of leaders are in the stages between, um, it's an expert and, uh, expert and achiever. And that's like the, the first and second of, of those, um, stages that you want to get through and you get stuck in that achiever mode. And part of that is reaction.

[00:23:01] I'm reacting to what's happening. Right. And I want, uh, to be admired for the things that I'm doing. I've learned to kind of use my team to make those things happen. Um, but I'm still not at that level where I can, um, look at the entire system.

[00:23:49] Hi, I'm Cole Napper, host of Directionally Correct. I'm trying to make that decision. Um, and I, uh, I, uh, I can't do that. And I want to make it, uh, to make those decisions. Uh, and not, not in that reaction, in that reaction mode. Yeah. So I going back, this is episode 25. I had a friend of mine who it's all about breathing.

[00:24:12] And it's all about breathing better before the stress comes and before the situations of having to make decisions. So if you haven't listened, go back to episode 25 with Andy Matthews. And it's all about breathing better. It's very fascinating. I'm actually, he's coaching me right now. I'm playing in my first golf tournament since college. I played competitive in college and I

[00:24:35] haven't played since, you know, a competitive level. So I'm, I'm playing in an event later this month and he's been doing this. He does it with PGA professionals. He does it with professional athletes. He does it with, you know, amateurs, teenagers, like it's all about breathing better. And it's, it's, it's something that I never really fully understood until I started talking to him

[00:25:00] about it. So anyway, in those reaction moments, when you're trying to lead a team under pressure, pause, breathe, breathe, right. If you're usually your body will, will react. Right. And so, you know, you'll, you'll tense. And so, you know that, okay, wait a minute, I've been triggered by something. Right. So I need to take a step back. I need to take a breath and I need to name that. What is that?

[00:25:29] What is happening right now? And what's the situation? Take a step back again. Um, and then assess what, what's necessary right now? Yeah, exactly. Right. And I think, um, again, even as parents, you don't have to give an answer right this minute, right? Somebody stops you in the hallway and ask you a question and you feel like you have to answer right then in that moment. And you get that sense

[00:25:58] of urgency and you react. If you just take a step back and you haven't actually processed whatever it is that they're asking of you, then you want to respond in a way that is, um, not just knowledgeable in the whole situation, but you want to know how does this affect the entire system? Yep. Right. Not just my team, not just my department, not just my organization.

[00:26:24] Yeah. How is this going to, uh, have an impact on the entire system that, that it, uh, touches? Yep. Yeah. And if anybody's listening to this, thinking about their situation right now, and, and really what level of trust and respect you have for your manager and your leaders in the organization, a lot of this stuff will either improve that and, and strengthen that trust and

[00:26:49] respect, or it might break it. Um, and how they're reacting to situations that you truly don't feel like they are making the right decisions. And it's just, you get that feeling of like, I don't trust them anymore, or I don't trust them. They've lost my trust. So a lot of this falls into that category of, of having that right leadership alignment. Um, and, and really how

[00:27:17] you're handling the situations to, to gain and improve that trust for your team. Because, you know, I've looked at my, my career and the people I've worked with and have been managed by and majority of the time it was someone that I trusted. I felt like they were helping me develop and our team develop, but, um, you know, not everybody's cut out to be a leader. It might want to be a leader. That's the truth. They want to get paid like the leader.

[00:27:43] Oh, absolutely. But they don't want to make those difficult decisions and have to have those difficult conversations with, with, uh, with a team. That's huge. Yeah. Difficult conversations are difficult for a reason. Yeah, exactly. And, and now I think just, you know, people coming into the workforce, let's say they're just graduating, getting out into the workforce and, and what they're getting

[00:28:07] prepared to be in, um, in for whether it's a lot of companies are still remote. A lot of companies are reevaluating their work environment, you know, and, and how their schedule of work is going to benefit them moving forward. And so it's kind of like, what are these young professionals coming into the workforce? And let's throw in AI.

[00:28:32] Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. So when you, when you're thinking about, uh, leadership, especially vertical leadership, where you're supposed to be coming from, right. This, uh, really evolved space, um, and maturity, and then all of a sudden you get something AI thrown at you, it will throw you for a loop, right? How does this fit in? How do I have a difficult conversation

[00:28:58] with AI? How does AI going to fit into my team? What is the appropriate way? What is, what's the safest? What's, I mean, there's so many things to consider. And again, like you said, breathe, take that pause, take that pause. Yep. So how do you lead with alignment when the businesses, uh, the, when the business environment is chaotic and constantly changing right now?

[00:29:28] Yeah. Um, I think that the best, I always go back, right. You have to, you have to know your triggers. You have to know, right. What it is that that's going to set you off and set you into that reactive mode so that you can stay aligned. And I like the breathing one. I'm going to use that. I'm stealing that, uh, right. You take, you take that solid deep breath and you decide I am not going to, um,

[00:29:56] participate in this chaos, right. I'm here to create peace. And I'm not looking at it like, uh, you know, how am I going to fix these people? I'm looking at it as, all right, if I'm the leader, how am I getting to this chaos? What, what am I doing? Right. That's, that's not the piece that's not bringing trust. It's not allowing my people to feel, um, that they are in an environment where

[00:30:21] they're going to get what they need to do their job, right. Whether, whether it's competency, skill assessment, you know, whatever that might be. Um, am I really aware of what they need and, and their growth actually, you know, not just what they need in terms of growth, but what are some growth opportunities? And I think the, the clearest indication, if, uh, if you're wondering if you're a

[00:30:47] good leader or not, if you're a good vertical leader, uh, look at your team. Are they growing? Are they flourishing? Is the environment one where, uh, someone makes the mistake and they can come and say, you know, and here's what happened. Here's where we're at. Let's brainstorm how we move forward from here and use that as an opportunity. You know, Hey, you, you're going to make mistakes,

[00:31:16] but ideally you won't make the same one I just made. Right. And now, you know, because I had shared that with you and, and I've never had a leader myself that says, here's how I screwed up one time and it was a major screw up, but here's what I learned. And you know what? I survived and my career survived and I was able to move forward. Um, have you exactly. Yeah. I've never had a,

[00:31:43] I've never had a leader that had that conversation with me. And if you're not willing to have that conversation, again, you're leading the conversation, your people aren't going to be able to, to have those conversations either because everybody thinks that they have to produce. It's about producing. Everything has to happen quickly. And I'm not allowed that, that breathing room either. I need to make sure that I'm reacting in that every time the boss says something,

[00:32:12] I'm jumping right on it. Well, again, you don't have time to look at the system. You don't have time to look at the big picture. You don't have time to decide what's happening and then checking yourself and saying, all right, let me, let me evaluate this based on what I truly believe and what I stand for. Now, what's my response going to be? You can do it in 10 seconds. I'm just saying. Yes, you can.

[00:32:42] Thank you. Definitely. Definitely. Uh, I am with Willie Weiberts leadership coach live on LinkedIn and YouTube. If you have a question, throw it in the chat about leadership. If you are not a leader or if you are, would love to hear from you or connect with obviously Willie on LinkedIn. Great follow and a great resource for you. So a couple more questions while we have you. So what role does

[00:33:09] emotional intelligence play in vertical leadership and where do leaders get it wrong? Um, I think it plays a huge role because that's part of self-awareness, right? Self-awareness, self-regulating, you know, being able to do all these, uh, advanced thinking level thinking things. Um, but I think that a lot of times leaders get it wrong because they equate emotional intelligence

[00:33:35] with being nice. I'm supposed to be nice. Yeah. Right. Um, I, I can't have conflict. I can't, I can't have a difficult conversation clearly if, uh, right. Um, as opposed to thinking, all right, how is this going to affect the bigger picture, right? Going through that process of, of, um,

[00:34:01] um, elimination and being able to self-regulate your emotions to be able to respond and not react. And again, to respond aligned to your principles, your values, your moral compass, um, all of those vertical things that, uh, right. We all aspire to get to, um, that place where we can actually make an impact on the world in, in a pop, a purposeful way and, and be able to say, Oh, I didn't just

[00:34:29] accidentally, you know, change the world in a good way. Um, which is fine. I'll take that too, but, uh, let's be purposeful. Let's, let's right. Absolutely. Prepare for it. Yeah. We have a question, Shelly. Uh, great question here. So in your profession, Willie, you had, you said self-awareness is the biggest area leaders struggle with. How do you support leaders to see this even if they know it,

[00:34:55] it's, but get stuck and just can't move forward. Example that use the pause method instead of using it's, um, let's see, it got, uh, instead of using their voice in a meeting. Well, there's a bunch of different assessments, right? Um, and, uh, there's good, there's bad, there's, there's criticism of everything, but, um, I have, uh, been using Myers-Briggs for

[00:35:24] almost 10 years and, um, it, it suits my needs. And I've also, um, certified by Gallup is a strengths coach. And so I look at your, so I have my clients do those assessments, right? And then I look at what are your conflict triggers? What, where are you essentially, right? And I can kind of gauge what you're, where you're at after conversations. And, um,

[00:35:52] um, I'm not a mind reader. I, you know, I'm just, I am good at reading people. I'll put it that way. Anyway, self-awareness, like most people don't know what their triggers are. They don't know that, um, you know, why they react. And then when you, when you walk through that and you have those conversations and then they recognize the common denominator, that makes a difference, right? Because now I know, okay, wait, he, he just triggered me. What did he say? Oh, wait,

[00:36:22] he challenged, he challenged my expertise, right? Uh, David's telling me how to raise children for God's sakes. Uh, and so wait a minute, right? And so now I know I was triggered and now I can take a step back and go, okay, wait a minute. What did he really mean? What, where was this conversation coming from? And you know what, if I can't figure it out, let me ask you, okay, wait a minute. So

[00:36:51] I'm just, uh, wondering where that is coming from and, you know, what your thought process is on that and having that conversation and not being afraid that it's going to turn into a difficult conversation because you know what, that's 80% in your head, right? And, um, just being upfront and having that conversation. Um, but I do have, uh, one or two that, um, have had a difficult time with

[00:37:15] accepting where they're at in their, uh, vertical leadership journey, we'll say, and, um, thinking that they are at, uh, a more expanded level than they actually are. And that is, that makes it a little more difficult, but you can go through scenarios and you can have those conversations, but again, how are the people around you doing? What are the people around you? You know, when you walk into a room,

[00:37:40] what happens? That's, that's a huge, right. And so self-awareness being aware and, um, and that's the first step, right? That, that, that's like level one bottom self-awareness. Okay. There's a lot of other things that, that need to happen as well in order for you to, to elevate into, um, a full pledge, we'll say, but never ends though. Um, becoming the best version of yourself as a leader,

[00:38:06] but, um, start there and have those conversations and, and yeah, people, people will struggle with it, but they got to learn how to regulate as part of the emotional intelligence, right. And, and how to slow things down. Yeah. I hope that answered it. Yeah. No, I think that was, that was great. Thanks Shelly for the question. If anybody else has any questions, chime in, would love to hear from you.

[00:38:32] If you have anything on your mind while we are live. So, um, a couple, uh, couple more questions I have for you, Willie. So how can organizations develop leaders to think vertically, not just execute horizontally? Uh, you know, it, everybody's always looking for that quick fix, right? Um, can I just go to a, a certification training? Can I go, you know, spend a week at a camp and learn everything I need to know and then come back. And it doesn't really work that way. Right. You,

[00:39:02] you need to have some, some stretch responsibility, right. Some, some, uh, opportunities to screw up, to, to have to go to somebody else and ask, right. Ask those questions and have those conversations conversations and, um, having a mentor, having, uh, someone who is at the higher level that you're hoping to, to get to not the three higher layer, three layers above you. Right. But what's that,

[00:39:31] that next level and how can I get there and, um, how did they get there and be willing to ask those, those, um, those questions. You know, I think it's interesting because anytime, and it's very rarely people will come up, you know, and say, Hey, you know, I'm looking for a mentor and, and I still am like me, you want me really? Are you sure? Right. All that self-doubt comes like, Oh, and what

[00:39:57] am I going to do? What do you want from me? Um, but being able to just have that conversation and say, you know what, here's what I see in you. And I want to learn how to do that. Yeah. Right. Or I've looked at your resume and I like the, the path of your career that you've taken. Can you talk to me about that? Can you, can you help me? Here's where I'm at. How, how would you recommend, you know, what's the next step? Where should I be looking? What should I be doing? But being able to

[00:40:23] have those conversations with folks where that have already arrived at the place where you're hoping to get and not acting like you already know everything and you're ready to be there. Um, because then you think you're the smartest person in the room and you know what I think about that. If you, if you do not have a mentor, I would strongly suggest going back to episode 50 of

[00:40:51] Speakeasy HR. I had, um, I had Pete Schramm, Pete Schramm with Pathfinders. He talks about having your personal board of advisors and it's, it's such a fascinating take. So again, episode 50, definitely go back and check out. Um, definitely worth listening to it and checking out his book Pathfinders.

[00:41:16] He was just in town for, um, an all day HR conference and I had him on. Um, I was live at the event doing, uh, HR, uh, you know, it was called HR collaborative. We had 11 speakers. I interviewed each of them for about 15 minutes on here. We had a, a live, uh, two, two episodes of Speakeasy HR at the event. So again, mentorship is so important and I'm glad you brought that up. I didn't know if it was

[00:41:43] going to get brought up, but, um, you, you definitely did. And, uh, it's such an important piece. You can learn a lot in, in, inside the walls of your organization, go out to events and meet people in the community that might be good resources, connections, mentorship is, is huge. So it's flattering that you probably got asked to be a mentor, right? Yeah. But I will, I will say if

[00:42:08] you're going to, you know, ask for a mentor, have something specific in mind. Yes, exactly. You know, um, and you know, so at least you can set those, those parameters and, and, uh, say, okay, well, here's, here's what I have to offer. Um, and, and be realistic about your limitations as well. Yep. Flattered, but flattered. Uh, so I'll leave you this with, I'll leave you with this

[00:42:34] question. Um, Willie. So if a leader realizes they've been leading reactively, what's the first step to shift forward with alignments? Self-awareness, but how do you get that? Right. Well, it's a good time to, uh, to look for growth opportunities within your own organization, to look for mentorship, um, to look for opportunities. I think you start with your

[00:43:03] skillset, right? We all have, we had to start somewhere. I, when I started with, um, like even with my, my Myers-Briggs or CliftonStrengths, CliftonStrengths is probably easier. I learned 34 strengths. I had to learn each of them. What do they mean? Now I have to kind of figure out, well, what does that look like when somebody's talking? How do I hear their strengths? How do I, right? All of these things. And that took years. Yeah. Right. And so that growth where I could finally

[00:43:33] get to the point where I'm having a conversation and I'm thinking, Oh, I just heard his futuristic come out. I just heard, right. That that's the application part. That's the, the ability to, to then synthesize, to, to use everything that you have, bring it all together and, and get to that next level. Am I at the, you know, alchemist level? Am I the magician? Am I at the, no, no. Right. Um,

[00:44:01] but I'm always, you know, looking to, uh, to expand my knowledge and to surround myself with people that know more than me and that can help me grow. And I think that's, that's the key is you need to, you can't just, you can't silo yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. No, this has been great. I've, I've learned so much. I'm going to have to go back and listen to it again so that I can digest

[00:44:29] everything that you went through, but, uh, hopefully everybody that has listened to this episode has, uh, has picked up something or several things to, to focus on in their role, if they're a leader or if they want to be, and they currently aren't a leader and want to focus on that moving forward in their, in their career. So anything else that you want to share or anything else that we didn't cover that you want to just, just, uh, pointing out that, you know, we barely

[00:44:54] touched the surface. We're, you know, still at that whole level one where it's self-awareness. There's a whole lot more that goes into, uh, vertical leadership, but I promise you, if you have no self-awareness, you aren't going to get to those next levels either. So start there. Yep. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was, uh, such a great episode and really enjoyed connecting with you again. So, uh, we'll certainly keep in touch if there's ever,

[00:45:22] ever something that you want to add to the, to the blog, definitely do that. I would, uh, greatly appreciate that. And, uh, thanks Shelly for, for chiming in and, and tuning in and, and hopefully you learned a little bit from, uh, from the episode. So I wish you all the best, Willie. Let's keep in touch. I know you're working on some things that we'll probably connect on in the future and be able to, to talk more about. So appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. I appreciate the

[00:45:49] invite and I appreciate the conversation. Yeah. It wasn't as scary as I thought it would be. It's a, it's an authentic, unfiltered, uncut conversation and that's what it's all about. So, uh, well, thanks everybody for tuning in next Monday, brand new episode, brand new guests. So check it out, go to LinkedIn, uh, find me or speakeasy HR and learn more. And we'll see everybody on next Monday. Take care, everybody.