What Great HR Leaders Do Differently

[00:00:05] Welcome to The Courageous Choice, a podcast about what it really takes to lead at the edge of change. Because here's the truth, strategy isn't enough anymore. The world of work is moving faster than ever, and the leaders who stand out aren't the ones with all the answers. They're the ones willing to make bold decisions in moments of uncertainty. This podcast is about those moments, about those leaders, and because leadership today isn't about certainty, it's about courage. The courage to see differently, act decisively, and step forward in you.

[00:00:35] Hi, and welcome to this episode of The Courageous Choice. I'm very excited today to be here with Pat Waters, who's the Chief Human Resources Officer at Intuitive. She is also a board member, an author, well-known in the HR space, and a proud grandma, expecting her third very soon. So we're super excited. Thank you so much, Pat, for joining us today. Thank you for having me. One of the things that inspired me to reach out initially was you were talking about courage in HR.

[00:01:03] And I know that you certainly have been a trendsetter in thinking about how do we design HR? How do we create a business mindset and really have impact? And you shared with me some of the things that you're doing with your team right now around creating a product mindset. And I'd love for you to share with the audience if you'd be open to it. Sure. So I've always adapted my language to the business.

[00:01:26] So that's something that I've always strived to do is like be part of the business language so it's clearly understood. So if I'm serving the sales commercial team, I speak as go-to-market methodology. I think about my customer and co-creating with my customer to solve the right problem, right? And what I call chase the right rabbit, what's the right metric? And I would teach this co-creation to my teams. And I realized at intuitive, like when I'd say co-create, they weren't quite sure what I meant.

[00:01:57] And with my leadership team, we rolled out recently the product mindset. Like, what does this look like? And if you think about a product, companies have a PRD, a product requirements document. And that's based on the customer, what they need. You look at your TAM. The TAM is your employee base. For us, it's 17,000 plus employees. Your SAM, right? Your serve-developed market is, you know, the subset of employees you're trying to serve, right?

[00:02:26] Either change behavior, get a new tool, whatever it may be. It could be managers, manufacturing, whatever. And then I go through, like, how do you know what problem you're solving? How do you validate the data? Like, what data do you look for? What does success look like? Do you pilot? Do you roll it out? Big bang. How do you do it? Do you have a business champion, right? Don't go into a business conversation. Have them flatfoot, not know what you're talking about. You should have already socialized and had a champion. And these champions can't be our partners in crime, so to speak.

[00:02:55] It can't be IT. It can't be finance. It's got to be, you know, the product leader. It's got to be manufacturing or sales. It's got to be someone that's going to run into the challenge of, should we adopt this or not? Yeah. And we gave the framework out and it was like lightning up on the chat. Like the conversation about it. We gave them the checklist. We walked through how you socialize. We gave them the thoughts. How you look at data. It was so fun to roll it up.

[00:03:23] I'm like, we do nothing else this year, but get this product mindset deeply ingrained. We will all be better served. And you and I chatted before, Jamie, about I don't want to launch programs. I want to create a legacy. And so creating a legacy means that it's actually pulled by the business understood and embedded in the DNA of the company. That makes me really proud. So if you take the framework, you have a better chance of creating a legacy.

[00:03:49] You know, we've been talking for a few years around like project management skills in HR, but this is like way beyond that, right? Thinking about what are you even designing? What are you solving? Getting the voice of the customer in a different way. Stakeholder management in a different way. I'd love to know, like, how are they going to take it from what you presented? Because I think it was yesterday, right? How are they going to move it forward? Do you have some first initial things they're going to try?

[00:04:15] Well, we started socializing and using the template and some programs and projects with the business. And we saw the smoothness of the acceptance of the idea of the co-creation where the business is like you lean into a meeting and you go, here's our hypothesis. This is the problem we believe is in front of all of us. Does this resonate? Pause. Like, really listen. If not, tweak it.

[00:04:45] And then you say, okay, our hypothesis based on this is to, we think we can approach an opportunity this way. Based on feedback. This is the subset of groups that we interviewed for the solutioning. What do you think? Pause. And what could go wrong if it, like, what's the negative perception of this project if we deal with this way? What do you think could bite us? Like, whatever language you use in your company, right? The hidden traps, whatever that is. It strikes me because I think that that point that you're making around, like, really listen.

[00:05:15] And if the feedback is, like, this just doesn't hit the mark. Like, we have to really be able to, this isn't about defensive. And I think there's something there when I just think about a lot of HR professionals. Like, we feel like we have to have, we either make assumptions or we think we have the solution. And this is a total reframe, right? Like, my team. And I mean, and I told them, I'm like, y'all are wicked smart.

[00:05:37] Like, your wisdom, your experience tells you that if you have a clean job architecture and clean job codes, then you will have these outcomes. Because we know to be true that we'll have a better outcome. If you use these, you know, mixes in a recipe, you'll have an amazing cake. Adults don't like to be told what to do without context. They like to be empowered, right? And they want to understand, you know, how this up levels over time. Like, does this really have a return on our time and our investment?

[00:06:08] And if they feel it, they will have discretionary effort. If they help co-lead it and put their DNA in the solution. I told the team, like, if you even tweak it a little bit based on their feedback in that room, their ownership exponentially increases. And I said, that's the goal. But you talked about creating athletes and building agile skill. And you want to do that across the business, obviously, but also within the HR function. And I feel like this is exactly that in motion, right?

[00:06:37] Like, teaching that ability. I just got off a call with a consultant who was sharing. He really comes from an HR and OD background. But he is going to market, actually, talking about customer-centric mindset and really having a customer mindset. And he has an assessment that he's helping companies, like, figure that out.

[00:06:59] But what he was sharing was that's the vehicle he's using to get to the systemic cultural leadership work, which is often underpinning. The symptom might show up that they're not delivering or focusing on the customer or there's a gap in the journey or something.

[00:07:17] So it just struck me as kind of similar to what you're saying, a business outcome and a business challenge first, even if the solution might end up being work that they don't see yet as the solution, if that kind of makes sense. Yeah. I mean, they will discern what's important. They'll get in the journey with us and they'll learn and become our champions. I also think it's imperative upon us to think both like a supplier, what is a good supplier, and a good customer.

[00:07:47] We both have incredible roles. And if I'm a good supplier, that means my customer will be better served because my query, my questions will make them articulate their needs better. As a supplier, I'll say, what is your prioritization? What is the risk you're worried about? Do you have absorption issues? Can you tackle this now? Is there another program going on that may, in fact, use the same people and get in our way?

[00:08:14] And so by my query, the customer will be better. I think that's one of the most important skill sets for HR today is actually asking powerful questions. Oh, it's our best tool by far. Yeah. And then powered with what you shared about that comfort of getting responses that you, just genuine responses that you aren't prepared for, right? And then being able to partner to solve. I think that's the moment we're at and the people who are comfortable with that are going to be more effective.

[00:08:44] Oh, they're going to change the game. If they're agile, they're athletes that will change the game. What is, I'd love to hear what that means to you, being agile and being an athlete in a corporate sense. So I forget the phrasing, but like every strategy goes to hell, you know, first line of conflict, right? So if you walk in with a point of view, which you should have, you should have done your homework and all that. But an athlete is anticipating being surprised.

[00:09:14] They don't know how, but they're anticipating. So I walk into a room with humility going, I am probably 90%, maybe even 95% accurate, but I'm probably missing one or two things that I don't, I can't see around that corner. And if you have come in with humility, with the curiosity and get permission for critical thinking, constructive feedback to me. And then I pivot and go, okay, tell me more. Why, why, why? I disagree or here's why I disagree.

[00:09:42] And let's, let's discuss that a little bit more. And, you know, by me role modeling, the curiosity, the care, the confidence still, right? I think the ball will move faster. So an athlete knows how to anticipate the race. They see someone running, they should see the pace of the speed of the turn. They know their energy. They know the outcome. They know the, the, where they're going on the track.

[00:10:10] You know, the athlete will adapt, right? They'll adapt in the play and, and, you know, baseball or football, they will, they will adapt their strategies based upon what they're seeing across that table. We have to do that. So many of us go, here's the play and go like, don't you see half that team is not on board. Right. Even if you were right, you're still not winning. You're not winning. Yeah. And that sucks.

[00:10:39] I've been on both sides of that fence. Yeah. I think that tension of confidence and adaptability and, and flexibility, like it's, it's learned maybe, you know, the, cause like the confidence is actually that I can navigate anything in front of us. And, and I want to get to the best solution for the team. Right. Right. And, and when I think about smart players, like I grew up playing soccer and right. The smart players see the whole field.

[00:11:09] Right. And they, yeah. And you know, if you're only looking at the grass in front of you, like a five-year-old playing soccer, like that's a whole different thing. Right. So how do you teach that in your HR team? So they don't have to see the whole playing field yet. What they have to understand is the tempo of reading. Like, do you have buy-in? And so if you don't have to read the room, then overtly ask. Jamie, Susie, Joe, Loretta.

[00:11:40] Thoughts, feedback. I'm just going to write it on the whiteboard. I'm going to make my notes, whatever the case may be. If the feedback is bigger than a bread box, it's not polishing an apple. It's pretty material to what you were planning. Then you take it all in and say, let me absorb what you said. I might follow up with you, but it's worthy of me taking another pass to make sure I understand what you're sharing with me today. Because I, I quite frankly, didn't see all that.

[00:12:06] So confidence that you can say, I didn't know all of what you just shared. Yeah. It's confidence to know that you're smart to figure out a problem once you're getting all the information. Right. And it's confident that they want you to be successful and they to be successful. So you're aligned on the business success. Yeah. You're just confident that these things are there and pausing and reflecting, coming back again, echoing what you heard, coming back to a conclusion.

[00:12:35] What's your key champions in the room? You will move the ball. Well, it's rare that I've seen someone that came back after echoing after a death, you know, didn't move the ball forward in some way. Yeah. There's something in that too, about actually coming at it like we're on the same team. Right. I mean, I'm a business leader. I want the success of the company. So treat me as such.

[00:13:00] When you think about the way that work is changing and, you know, you're, I don't know what, how far you guys are on your AI journey or how you're leaning in there. I guess maybe share a little bit about what those conversations are looking like and then maybe how you're kind of readying the workforce through some of this work, I'd imagine. AI is here and it's evolving so fast. And, you know, you see that 85% have failed or too expensive.

[00:13:26] So in this space, I personally would want to be a fast follower, learn from others' mistakes. I don't have to be, and we don't have to be a leader. With that said, you know, we're leveraging AI in our products. We're leveraging AI across the enterprise. And I'm leveraging AI for my personal productivity and that on my team. I'm a champion of the AI literacy for the company. All of that to say, let's get confident in learning and then applying what we can.

[00:13:54] And then I am trying to extrapolate out with my team's help is like in three to five years, what could the workforce look like for three years? And a part of my workforce is agentic AI, you know, agents. Then managers have to know how to manage an agent as much as they not to manage an employee. Like what is the leverage? How do you look at process design, your metrics, protecting security of the company, the data that you use, the foundation of data?

[00:14:20] And so for us in HR, it's like job code is a foundational data set. You know, our job codes, the governance around those. And then if you think about cleaning that up and making it really clear, simplifying your architecture, then how do you attach your learning, your disposition of tools and software and governance around that? So when you change jobs, it knows that and knows location and changes what you get access to, the knowledge you get.

[00:14:47] And an AI agent can come talk to you and go, hey, you just changed jobs. Boom, boom, boom. Here's your career path. And so I'm trying to figure out a way for job descriptions to be more agile. So it doesn't say you do these 15 things. It says these are the skills you need and the realm in which you work. So if I change your job by 20% on what you thought your job was, it's not like your job shifted. It's like you're evolving. So you're applying this to us potentially in different ways, but it's really the thing.

[00:15:13] So are you saying you already like have those agents built or is that where you're going? We have some agents, like we're playing with it, right? Like we're going on this. And so we have a couple of agents to help us. We're looking at our dance partners. You think about the ERP partners out there. You think about the vendors out there implying the same thing. And so how do you cross over? How do you create this employee experience where they're not in conflict? Right. We're all navigating that. Yeah.

[00:15:41] I mean, and because there are roadmaps and functionality, everyone's evolving and there's duplication and then trying to figure out, you know, like you said, you don't want redundancy, but you want smooth transition and to optimize. So it's actually a pretty exciting time. Really exciting. I'm learning every day and it's a little over when I'm like, I thought I knew that. And then I'm like, somebody else could be like, so yeah. To me, I mean, I think for probably people like you and I, it's actually, that's what

[00:16:07] makes it so exciting is, is this opportunity to really like question all assumptions. I mean, the things that we, there are some fundamental things that I think we know, but even questioning how those apply or things, truths that we maybe grew up with in our careers, like there's this, we're having this really fun exercise with clients around, it's like a futurist kind of approach, but really how do you, how do you imagine what's possible with,

[00:16:33] without the constraints that you actually see today, whether it's financial, functional, org design, like whatever. Right. Because that is changing so quickly. It like blows my mind. I mean, I don't know if you've had any. Blows my mind. Is there something you've seen that, that has like been one of the things you were amazed by? I think what I'm excited about and scared about, like, I'm still learning. Keep going back to that is. Every day.

[00:17:00] If you think about the McKinsey's of the world being like org design, you know, now I can leverage AI. Like this is org design. I'm optimizing for this. These are the constraints. This is what it looks like. This is the customer. This is the supplier. How would you organize for these outcomes? And what am I missing? Critical thinking. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like, oh damn. Look at that. That's pretty amazing. What, how do I do change management mapping from my as is to my to be, if you have access

[00:17:26] to my current jobs and what changes in the productivity metrics, I can get benchmarks and costs to serve and like, boom, like I can do that with natural language. Help me understand my attrition rate and where my biggest risk is by function, by geo, by level. And once I understand what's my recommend, what are your recommendations based upon our cultural constraints, list those things out. Right. So I have a retention plan.

[00:17:56] I know my attrition risks. I know my hiring. I know my cost per hire. I know how to reduce my, like the, the opportunity is endless. And for me, it's like a kid in a candy shop. I'm trying to, you know, my team is like, like all over it. It's super exciting.

[00:18:40] Interesting. The new functionality and it maps it immediately so that you can then decide, you know, your plan. And it's a, like it'll refresh because the systems are changing so quickly. So it's pretty amazing. You, you shared with me this idea of, of really having like a legacy mindset. And as you're, you know, creating, but what does legacy mindset mean to you? I think it got clearer as I got older. Actually.

[00:19:09] I want to be my personal view on this. I want to build things with the business, with my leaders, with my employees that when I'm gone, it's not Pat's initiative. It's, it's what it created a high performing, healthy company. And I want to make the people I'm with and the company I'm with better for me, for having me serve them and be part of their lives.

[00:19:37] I want them and myself to both grow through the experience. And so when, once you've seen something grown, it's hard to ungrow, right? It's, it's like you've, to me, that's a legacy. If I, if I left and you, and you're like, thank God she's gone. I'm going to get rid of my, this or my performance management, my goal setting or my, whatever you think, yeah, my competency, whatever, this is your thing. I have failed, right? I have failed in a meaningful way.

[00:20:06] And it's through me pushing a boulder up without alignment with the business. I didn't give anyone better skills or wisdom. I didn't give them more confidence. That to me is a legacy. I want them to be better served because I was there. Wow. I got chills. Yes. I love that. You know, you're so accomplished. When you think back so far throughout your career, and I say thus far, because I know you're still doing this.

[00:20:35] So, so I don't think this is, this is the legacy defining thing, but when you, you think historically, like what are, is one or two things you're most proud of so far? I, you know, I, the things that popped in my head really fast probably are what mean the most are the people that I've worked with on my teams that have gone on and flourished and found joy in their careers. I, I think what I do and what we get to do is pretty darn sexy and critical. And many times we're not seen that way.

[00:21:05] But I think if you show up as a business leader with this athleticism, you change hearts and minds and you make better cultures around you and you create healthier paths for employees and their families. So for me, I'm super proud of that. I think I've been able to accomplish that in companies I've worked with. They're like, all right, I'm just going to believe you. The other thing I'm really proud of is the moment which I brought belonging into IND at LinkedIn. Yeah.

[00:21:32] That to me was, it felt so right to my core. And I remember getting, you know, a little bit of pushback in the beginning, like dibs is kitschy, like, you know, and, and I'm like, yeah, but it'll be a little bit like, you know, it'll be remembered. Like belonging will be remembered. You're like, I'm calling dibs on belonging, inclusion, and diversity. I, people want to belong in a really authentic way.

[00:21:59] And I know when I get to be me, I'm happier, more productive, healthier, joyful. Who doesn't want that? And so I'm really, that just was like pulling things together for me. I'm really proud of that. And I won't let go of it. Like, I don't care what the environment is like. I think this matters so much. And it, it just strikes me as something that's living, right?

[00:22:24] Like to me, the, the environment, the context, the company, the team, like there's just some fundamental truths as humans. And, you know, we, we, and I talked a little bit about fear around AI and change and that people are having, like, how do we create that connection and sense of belonging and purpose? Yeah. You can't see it over there. I have this sign above our door that says productivity is a basis for morale. And it's, it's not productivity necessarily in like a checking the box, but it's contributing

[00:22:53] meaningfully to something in your day, whether it's work or otherwise. And so I believe that is a fundamental truth. I, I, I'm also proud that I, I published a book that I didn't intend to write. So not often. Wiley publishing reached out. This woman reached out to me and asked me to write a book about HR. And I said, no, because I'm dyslexic, like to write something and just felt like overwhelming. And then I write the way I talk.

[00:23:23] Yeah. That's who I am. And so when peers of mine were like, let's write a book about HR and then pass them. Like I can't, because you write, like they talk formally there and I'm way more casual and I'm the storyteller. Oh my gosh, there'll be so a science. Now here's my story. Like, I'm going to be in the box. You write the other stuff. I'm all right, the boxes. And so like, I never fit. And they reached out like, well, you write a book about HR. And I'm like, no. And they're like, why not?

[00:23:49] And I said, well, the primary reason is I stand on the shoulders of so many people that do the craft. Like I share clearly and I, and, and transparently, I copy shamelessly and give them credit. And like, this is for a team sport. And so why would I write a book about that? Like, that just seems obnoxious to me. And because I'm learning so much all the time and she goes, well, what would you write about? And no one ever asked me that.

[00:24:13] And so I came back like two months later, like it's really a while to get my guts up. And I said, if I could write a book that leverages the fables and folktales I use to tell my stories for learning that I've done for decades, right? Like Goldilocks might just write fit. And the emperor, you know, new clothes is about, you know, your leadership shadow and creating psychological safety and touching elephant is about curiosity and questions.

[00:24:43] And I can tell these fables and folktales with my personal learning and my professional learning. I would do that. And so like, well, write an outline. I'm like, okay. And so I wrote an outline and they said, yes. I'm like, when can you get it done? I'm like, I don't know. Like how small big is the book? And they were like, I don't know, nine, 10 chapters. I'm like, okay, then I could do a chapter a week maybe. And they're like, okay. And I did it. And I did it in four months. And it's my voice. Yeah. I laughed. I cried.

[00:25:12] So all the stories I believe in. And to me, it's a legacy piece that, you know, my kids can use. You've actually hit on legacy, I think, in a lot of things here. And, but the, the most powerful thing is to help people through our own journey and our own experience. That's like the authentic thing. When I look at people I admire and I, I really try to distill like, how did they get where they are?

[00:25:39] Like if we can help and help others, one, we'll put a link to the book. Cause that sounds amazing. And I think everybody should read it, but you know, you said nobody had asked you that question. It kind of goes back to the power, the powerful questions that that Wiley person was thoughtful enough to make you, give you the opportunity to think about what would be meaningful to you. And you got to a different answer than you had been before. Completely. Belonging happened that way too.

[00:26:08] I was asked by a woman from Stanford. I was doing a panel for professionals, business women's conference. And as a panelist, I'm fine. She was like, do you want to do a Ted like talk before the panel? And I go about what she was diversity. Like they, now they're in a diversity conference. Like why am I doing? No, no, no. And she's like, no, how does it make you feel as a head of talent? How does diversity make you? Yeah. Whenever I asked me that.

[00:26:35] And I'm like, keep back the next day with belonging and dips. I think that's, maybe that's the challenge out of our conversation to listeners is like into the next meetings you go come with just a powerful question. What's a powerful question you could ask that might get that response or cause someone to reflect or cause someone to reflect in a way that they hadn't before or yourself to for that matter. Oh, powerful. I, I have a, on my other desk, I have a list of powerful questions to remind, it's really

[00:27:03] to remind me of the power of questions because again, I think that as leaders, often we're so trained to try to have solutions and you feel responsible. Like not, it's not coming from a, I'm trying to tell you a directive perspective. It's more just like, I feel responsible to have ideas or, or solutions. You're looking at it. You're looking at me for guidance. Right. You know, and it doesn't always feel good to be met with a question, but that's how, you know, as a business, I remember the transition, like from a business partner

[00:27:33] to, to real impactful kind of HR leader and biggest difference was not solving it was asking the question. What advice do you have for up and coming HR professionals who, who look at you, you know, with admiration and, and where you've kind of stepped in with courage? What advice do you have for them as they are on their authentic journey? Gosh, be humble, be authentic.

[00:28:01] I think it's a topic in how you show up. Meaning if you don't know the answer, you don't know the answer, but I guarantee, you know how to find the answer, seek the answer, create an answer. Like you, you, we are problem solvers and there are problems you were facing that we've never faced before. Like COVID.

[00:28:22] I mean, there's so many things we do our best learning in the deep pool of unknown and grab those like run. I call them butterflies actually. Yes. So follow your butterflies. If you have a little bit of butterfly, you're going to ask more questions. You're going to make more friends. You're going to learn more and you're going to look back and go, holy, look what I just did. Look what I learned.

[00:28:52] Chase your butterflies and you will be amazing. Thank you so much. I am really so, so inspired. Chasing. I love the chasing butterflies. I'm going to lean into that for sure. I feel it in my stomach, you know, when you're in flow and you can, and it's, it's like scary, but in all the good ways and you just know you're stretched, like in your stretch zone and learning and, and it's like, it's incredible. And then to share that with others. I mean, that's like really, really magical.

[00:29:20] So it's such an honor to have you today. I really appreciate you taking the time and I hope to see you again soon. I do too. Thank you so much for the conversation. It was enjoyable. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to The Courageous Choice. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five-star review to help get the word out about the podcast and don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss out on any of our future conversations.

[00:29:46] If you'd like to know more about gig talent, please visit gigtalentagency.com or email us at podcast at gigtalentagency.com. See you in the next episode.