How will I know?

[00:00:03] You're listening to The Well-Led Podcast, where professionalism meets imperfection. I'm Kate Johnson, your host and owner of 123 Limited. Each month, alongside longer conversations and my own reflections, I make space for other voices, short contributions from multiple leaders, practitioners, and thinkers. I believe hearing a range of perspectives deepens how we understand what good leadership really looks like.

[00:00:31] This month, we're exploring accountability, and in this episode, you'll hear brief reflections from two contributors, each sharing her perspective on how they define accountability and what lessons they've learned over time. This month is just a little different. My contributors recorded their thoughts and conversation with me in a more interview-like approach. Still, you'll hear each voice sharing different experiences, different perspectives.

[00:01:00] One shared focus on accountability. We'll start with last month's Deeper Conversation guest, Christy Schoonover. Christy, how do you define accountability? When I'm looking at accountability, I'm looking at who's going to do it, how will I know it's done, and what is it?

[00:01:31] And this came about a couple of years ago when we were doing some leadership training. It all seems very obvious that you should know what it is, who's doing it, and when it's going to be done. But those things can easily be overlooked. We live in a world of assumptions that somebody is just going to take responsibility for things, or that people are just going to follow the rules.

[00:02:00] I had taken on a leadership role. My first people leadership role was when I was probably about 24, and I really had no business being a leader, people leader, when I was 24. And two years into it, I decided to take a step back because one of my biggest learnings was that not everybody works like me.

[00:02:22] I think as leaders, we go into it with not a lot of actual leadership training. We get the management training. We learn how to approve vacations. We learn what forms need to be filled out.

[00:02:42] But you don't learn how to lead people. So then as soon as somebody does something that's not what you would expect, I froze.

[00:02:53] And so I went back and in my role in talent development and having to lead what or coach others in leadership, I learned a lot about leadership and built up this skill in holding others accountable and understanding what it means to hold others accountable.

[00:03:18] And I think it really depends too on the task and your relationship with that person and figuring out where you draw that line in holding somebody accountable of, you know, my 13 year old son, I'm checking in every single night on his homework. But my teammate that I've worked with for 10 years, I can give her the goal of what needs to be done.

[00:03:46] And we'll check in every so often throughout the course of the project. But I have a lot of trust that it's going to get done. I'm checking in more on like, oh, did you come up with a plan on how you're going to get this done? I'm not checking it on, did you do this in the exact tactical way that she's doing it? How has your understanding of accountability changed over time?

[00:04:08] I think what continues to surprise me about accountability is that there are certain things that matter a lot to some folks that don't necessarily even cross the radar of others.

[00:04:27] So thinking about in the training we did a couple of years ago, we were giving the example of if there was some rule that was made that said, hey, everybody has to wear pink on Wednesdays. Let's say that Bob decides he's going to wear white on Wednesdays.

[00:04:50] If Bob's leader doesn't say, hey, Bob, I noticed you're wearing white and lets that slide. All of a sudden, the entire company starts wondering, hey, Bob's not following the rules. Do I have to not? Can I not follow the rules?

[00:05:08] So the idea that the credibility starts to slide as a leader, understanding why this expectation has been set is so important. And holding your team to that expectation is so important because you might think, oh, it's just silly. We asked everybody to wear pink on Wednesday. No big deal that Bob wore a white shirt.

[00:05:37] Maybe Bob didn't have a pink shirt. Maybe it was in the laundry. It's not going to be a big deal. But you better believe there are 10 people that wrote it on their little tally list that how many times Bob has not worn his pink shirt. And it's undermining the credibility of what's going on. And there might be a really good reason why that expectation was set.

[00:06:03] And as a leader, you need to be able to understand that and reinforce that with your team so that you are supporting the company's goals and overall purpose in that objective. Anything else to add on the subject of accountability? I think so. Was that this really random example? No, I love it. Sometimes you have to make it random and ridiculous for people to think through. In that case, there has to be a very clear why.

[00:06:31] Why would we expect people to wear pink shirts on Wednesdays? Okay, then I have to be able to articulate that. And even if I think it's not important for whatever reason, if I hold a leadership position, I have a responsibility to uphold the standard.

[00:06:51] So Bob better put away the white shirt on Wednesdays unless there is a need for a reasonable accommodation that has been, you know, we're really clear about what accommodations and exceptions will look like. Yeah.

[00:07:09] As I stopped talking about that example, there's a good example in When We're In Charge. It's a leadership book by Amanda Littman. I'm in the middle of listening to it right now, but it's for millennials and Gen Z leaders.

[00:07:37] And it was talking about the return to work policy and getting people on board with the return to work policy. And it was talking about how it's not, how leaders need to present things as not a choice. So I guess that's what I would have to add to accountability is when you're presenting things to your team, it's not a choice. It's the company policy. So the company policy is we have returned to the office.

[00:08:05] The company policy is we send timelines within 24 hours. So at the end of the day, you are on board with company policy or you are not on board with company policy. And to your point, there might be times where we need to look at, are there accommodations that need to be met? We can have those conversations as leaders, but there are certain things that this is company policy.

[00:08:33] And you, as an employee are here and you're getting paid to do a certain job and we need to get on board with company policy. And as leaders, back to the clarity discussion, we need to have clarity on why that is the company policy so that we can communicate that out to our team. But we need to hold our teams accountable to following that company policy.

[00:09:00] And I think sometimes we can get distracted in, oh, but they do a good job on this part of their job and overlook this other internal piece. And we need to look at the work they're doing holistically. Yeah, that's the I used to call this. They're a good nurse, but conversations. Yeah, they've got such great clinical skills, but like, no, not a good nurse if there's a but there.

[00:09:26] It's also there, there is always a choice, but the choice is not. I'm going to do the thing or I'm going to buck the system. The choice is you do the thing or you don't work here anymore. Exactly. And that is a choice. You can make it. I will support you in it. If this is something that you cannot in good conscience do or it's beyond your capabilities. Fine.

[00:09:54] But the choice to stay and disrupt, that's not on the table. If the policy, the change, the thing is in place for a valid business reason, you got to do it then. And we had a leader that used to say, like, we'll disagree in private. But once, like, the meeting is over, we've walked out this door. You've had your moment to say your piece. Like, yeah, we've walked out the door. Let's be on board. And United is a leadership team. Yeah.

[00:10:24] That's always been something I have asked of my leaders is let me have my voice behind the closed door. Mm-hmm. And if this is the decision when we're done in discussion, conversation, whatever is appropriate, then you're not going to hear any more of my questions because I will be on board with it. And you owe that to your people. Hi, my name is Anisha Jennings.

[00:10:51] I'm the founder of Jennings Tech Corner, podcast host of Your American Dream. This is a podcast where I interview immigrants, women, and women of color entrepreneurs. I have them come share their journey, their stories, and promote their business. I moved from India 10 years ago and restarted my life.

[00:11:11] And, you know, after getting my second master's, landed a job in New Jersey, and I've been here since, realized I just wanted something more, and hence I started the business. So that's a little bit about me. Thank you so much, Anisha. We'll just dive right in to the questions that I've shared with my other Voices guests this month. First is how do you define accountability? Accountability is something that lets you sleep at night.

[00:11:40] At different periods and seasons in life, you can have people being accountable for you, right? Like when you're younger, you have your parents. When you are in school, you have friends. College, you have friends, teachers. But as you grow older, and especially in the entrepreneurial world, if you are a business owner, a founder, you're accountable for yourself.

[00:12:05] And that is a huge responsibility that, you know, how you move will define how you lead your team, how you grow, how you scale.

[00:12:19] And hence, I say that accountability helps you sleep better at night because when you know you have given your best, you have done your best without anybody watching over you or without having to be told what to do. You create the pathways for others to grow as well. And that creates a leadership role for yourself. What led to this understanding of accountability for you?

[00:12:46] I've always been a very driven person, a very motivated, and I always loved school. I loved how my teachers, I just loved all my teachers. I loved learning. I loved their dedication and, you know, their concern, their care, even when they didn't need to or they didn't have to. They were still pouring into me, right?

[00:13:13] So that kind of shifted something in me at a very young age, which made me realize that they're just doing it for my good, right? They're not having like an agenda. They're just pouring into me. And that was kind of, I think, my early understanding of accountability is even with my parents, they are doing so much for me. They're pouring into me. My teachers, my friends, my family are pouring into me, which means there is an expectation.

[00:13:41] There is an accountability that I have to, you know, do my best. I have to have some sort of reward for what they are doing. Because they are pouring so much into me, I need to reward them with either like good behavior, good grades, or whatever that was at that age. So I think that was my understanding very early on. And that just continued for me, which is I need to be good at what I do.

[00:14:11] I need to be, you know, when somebody has to tell you what to do or you have somebody monitoring you, then it is like, it feels like it doesn't feel like free. It doesn't feel like freedom. Because then you're like, oh, if the person is not telling me what to do, then I'm not going to do it. Or if the person is not watching, then I'm not giving the best of myself.

[00:14:34] So accountability is basically giving the best of yourself without any nudges, without any external factors. And motivation, again, motivation is one thing which can be internal, external. Thankfully for me, it has always been internal. So I just, you know, I was highly motivated too.

[00:14:58] And my accountability understanding basically is that if God has given me these opportunities through my parents, through my family, through places, then I need to live up to it. And I need to do my part and fulfill the purpose that God has called me for. How would you say your understanding of this has evolved over time? Yes. Like I mentioned, as an entrepreneur, right, you're responsible for your own business.

[00:15:27] You're responsible for your own, for the income, for your team. So you do have to think about the consequences of your actions. Or how do I make this work for everybody? You didn't just start a business to start a business. It's not like a trend, right? You started it for a specific why. So what is that why in your life that you actually started the business for? It could be family. It could be time, freedom of time.

[00:15:57] It could be freedom of money, you know, freedom of purpose. So whatever that why is, that is what is going to define your motivation, your actions, your how you move through your business and how you lead other people through it. So your why sort of changes in every season of life. And that sort of becomes trigger or a motivation for your accountability.

[00:16:23] So I think as I've moved through different stages and seasons in my life, I have different responsibilities as a daughter, as a wife, as a mother, you know, as a friend. So I've been seeing the accountability factor just changes. And as you go into the business world or corporate, wherever you're at, it definitely changes based on your present situation and your present why.

[00:17:19] I agree. Sometimes accountability is external. When I lived in India, I lived with my parents. I was accountable for like if I was out too late, then who was going to drop me off or who am I with or do they have to pick me up? I'm accountable for all of that. And then I moved to U.S. and I'm all by myself. Now the accountability is internal, right? Because I don't have to answer anybody. I can stay out as late as I want.

[00:17:49] I can pretty much there's nobody watching over me and I don't I'm not living with my parents. There's nobody to ask me anything. So now you have all that freedom. And then it becomes internal as to like, OK, I do have this freedom. How can I use it for my benefit and not to, you know, make a bad choice, basically. So then it sort of becomes an internal accountability.

[00:18:13] My external accountability of so many years has channeled and shaped and molded me in a way that my internal accountability also sort of matches it in order that I continue to make good choices. It's just like a habit and you don't have to think so much about it. With regard to not overburdening myself, it would be it would come down to basically two things. Am I making the good choice? Am I making the bad choice?

[00:18:40] Is this going to benefit me and my family or is it going to hurt us? Is this going to hurt me in the long run? Am I making those choices, right? Because at some point as an adult, you know the difference between making a good choice and a bad choice, the consequences of the actions that we do take. So I guess that's that would be my answer. One would hope by adulthood we figured out consequences. Well, Anisha, thank you so much for your thought.

[00:19:10] Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for listening to The Well-Lead Podcast. If this episode was useful, you can support the show by following or subscribing on your preferred podcast platform or by sharing it with someone who's navigating similar questions. And if you'd like practical tools that accompany these conversations, you can find a link to request the current free leadership toolkit in the show notes.

[00:19:38] It's designed to help you put ideas from the podcast into practice. And subscribers to the 123 Limited newsletter receive these resources automatically. We'll be back next Tuesday with another episode exploring what it means to lead well. Before we wrap up, I want to share a quick note about paper. The learning experience I'm currently developing. Paper is a practical, analog method for personal effectiveness.

[00:20:06] Instead of relying on pre-design planners or productivity apps, it teaches you how to create a simple, handwritten system that helps you think clearly about your priorities, responsibilities, and goals. In a world full of tools promising organization, paper focuses on something more important. Effectiveness. Effectiveness. Connecting what you do each day to the results that matter most.

[00:20:36] You can learn more in the show notes. Thanks again for listening.