[00:00:00] You're listening to Work Wire sponsored by Career Club and SHRM.
[00:00:03] Career Club has a range of services aimed at job seekers with an empathetic approach.
[00:00:08] Whether you are a job seeker yourself, know someone who is in job search, or an HR professional
[00:00:13] looking to bring a more empathetic approach to transitioning employees, check out Career.Club.
[00:00:18] If you are an HR professional seeking to enhance your skills, subscribe to SHRM and
[00:00:23] explore their extensive resources.
[00:00:25] Visit SHRM.org.
[00:00:27] That's SHRM.org.
[00:00:31] Hello everybody, this is Bob Goodwin with Career Club.
[00:00:35] Welcome to another episode of The Work Wire where I'm joined by my good friend and cohost,
[00:00:40] the CEO and president of SHRM, Johnny C. Taylor Jr.
[00:00:43] Johnny, how are you?
[00:00:44] I'm doing well today.
[00:00:46] Well, honest, I got a little crook neck, a crook in my neck, but everything is wonderful.
[00:00:50] Your age and stuff is going to happen, okay?
[00:00:53] Oh, gosh, I feel an ageism topic coming up, but we'll talk about that later.
[00:00:59] Well, we'll find out.
[00:01:02] So today's topic is on loyalty.
[00:01:07] We're recording this towards the end of February and recently there was an article
[00:01:12] in Business Insider by one of their chief correspondents, Aki Ito, and she was exploring
[00:01:20] the perception of the disappearance or the decrease in loyalty that is being felt between
[00:01:30] employees and employers.
[00:01:32] I'm just going to kind of go through a couple of highlights to get you and our audience
[00:01:37] grounded in some of the key aspects of the article, and then we'll pick the thread
[00:01:42] up from there.
[00:01:43] So as Aki writes, the article discusses the changing relationship between employers
[00:01:48] and employees, emphasizing the decline of traditional workplace loyalty amidst phenomena
[00:01:53] like quiet quitting and job hopping.
[00:01:56] From a historical context, it used to be that companies shared their prosperity with
[00:02:03] their employers through benefits, job security, all that kind of company man mentality that
[00:02:09] helped forge this psychological contract that this is employment for life and that
[00:02:16] if you've got me, I've got you kind of mentality.
[00:02:19] I can't believe I'm going to say this to a lawyer, but we're the contract principles
[00:02:24] of mutuality and reciprocity applied and we can unpack those in a minute.
[00:02:29] So what happened?
[00:02:32] What the writer says is things like globalization and just changes in business practices
[00:02:38] have led to more transactional relationships.
[00:02:41] So we can think about whether it's private equity firms leaning on the company or their
[00:02:46] public companies and stock market is pressuring them.
[00:02:50] But just the traditional contract has become kind of unwound.
[00:02:56] So what are some companies?
[00:02:58] Well, we'll get into what some companies are doing in a minute.
[00:03:01] But I just want to start at the start with you, Johnny.
[00:03:04] Do you even agree with the basic premise that there's a decline in loyalty between
[00:03:10] employees and employers?
[00:03:13] Yes.
[00:03:14] I don't think there's much of a debate about that where I might differ when we get to
[00:03:20] that fork in the road with hockey is the cause of it.
[00:03:25] Much of the narrative is around what companies have done to violate that trust and to
[00:03:33] affect loyalty.
[00:03:35] And there's not enough of a conversation, I'd suggest to you around what employees,
[00:03:42] the employee population has done.
[00:03:46] Let's go all the way back to and I'm old enough now to talk about it since you
[00:03:49] talked about my age.
[00:03:53] Why 2K?
[00:03:54] Do you remember when we all thought the world was going to end on midnight 1201?
[00:03:59] Right.
[00:04:01] In the year 2000.
[00:04:02] And for those of you too young enough to know, literally 23 or so years ago, there
[00:04:08] was this real fear that when we hit calendar year 2000, all of our systems would go
[00:04:13] sideways and the world as we knew it would come to an end.
[00:04:16] Well, the fact of matters that didn't happen until 2020.
[00:04:18] That was called COVID.
[00:04:19] But it wasn't a Y2K.
[00:04:22] I remembered being an HR at Blockbuster at the time.
[00:04:26] And we had, you know, we were in the earliest stages of technology and the embracing of
[00:04:31] technology.
[00:04:32] But we had a great group of technologists.
[00:04:35] Unfortunately, as we got closer 1998, 1999, we saw a technologist come in and say,
[00:04:42] I can go across the street for 30% increase.
[00:04:45] I want a signing bonus if you don't give it to me, I'm out.
[00:04:48] If you don't do this, you don't do that.
[00:04:50] I'm leaving you at your most vulnerable point.
[00:04:53] Remember, at this point, companies were afraid of what was going to happen at 1201
[00:04:58] come the year 2000.
[00:05:00] We were literally being held hostage.
[00:05:03] And I remember the CEO then of the company Blockbuster saying to me, OK, we have to
[00:05:08] do what we have to do.
[00:05:09] But I assure you, if the world continues to exist in a way that we hope it does
[00:05:15] in 2000, we're going to pull all of this back.
[00:05:18] We're going to lay these people off.
[00:05:19] We're going to cut these salaries.
[00:05:21] We're going to return the favor.
[00:05:25] So I don't know if that it started in 2000.
[00:05:28] I can tell you, in my professional career, mid 1990s when I was early on in my
[00:05:33] career, even I began to question loyalty.
[00:05:37] And it wasn't the company's loyalty to the employee.
[00:05:40] It was the employees who realized they now had leverage and they used it against us.
[00:05:45] And thus, at least in my the last 30 years, I've seen it tear further and further
[00:05:52] apart.
[00:05:52] The question is what started that?
[00:05:56] So let's unpack that a little bit.
[00:05:58] That's very unfortunate kind of that blackmailing or extortion or whatever the
[00:06:02] right term is for those programmers.
[00:06:04] That's not cool.
[00:06:06] What strikes me is, and I'm older than you, so there's ageism, but going back
[00:06:13] even further.
[00:06:14] So if I was like in Detroit and I'm a company man working at Ford or General
[00:06:19] Motors or wherever, one is that was a labor oriented job.
[00:06:27] And so there's only so many places to take my back and my hands to go do the
[00:06:32] work.
[00:06:34] Secondly, you're in a pre-internet, pre-technology world, information
[00:06:40] transparency was not high.
[00:06:43] So I didn't even know what was available to me because there wasn't much there was
[00:06:48] more opacity than transparency with what's available.
[00:06:53] And then as the nature of work has shifted to be more knowledge oriented and less
[00:07:01] sweat oriented, then technology enables me to work from somewhere else and I
[00:07:10] don't have to be.
[00:07:11] And so it just creates a lot more fluidity in what my opportunities are.
[00:07:18] So I think a lot of these things have sort of moved in favor of the talent
[00:07:24] pool to just have more choices.
[00:07:27] Well, and but let's continue.
[00:07:30] And it has technology has given us from the employer perspective, more
[00:07:35] choices.
[00:07:36] The globalization is that Aki refers to.
[00:07:39] At one time, the big three produced what 80 90 percent of the cars in America
[00:07:43] will now foreign cars can enter the U.S.
[00:07:46] market so we can get that car made more cheaply in another part of the world
[00:07:51] imported into the United States and therefore you don't have a lock.
[00:07:55] You know, the big three don't have a lock on the monopoly of acquiring
[00:08:00] cars and therefore labor costs are at odds with the fact that your
[00:08:05] counterpart will build that same car for you with employees who work for 10
[00:08:10] bucks an hour in another part of the world.
[00:08:12] Your folks want 40 dollars an hour.
[00:08:14] So I mean, it's just we got to realize all of those things that you
[00:08:17] described technology also gives us as employers more choice.
[00:08:23] It's not just the employee gives us more choice.
[00:08:26] I was talking to someone, as you know, because we covered this on the
[00:08:29] work wire and a couple of episodes ago, people who during the height of
[00:08:34] the pandemic who said, I don't want to work in the office.
[00:08:36] I can work from anywhere.
[00:08:38] And what do we say to them?
[00:08:39] That's a really good point, which means I can hire someone anywhere.
[00:08:43] You know, this cuts both ways.
[00:08:45] So yes, employee, you have that argument and I say, hey,
[00:08:48] and I've got the argument that you're absolutely right.
[00:08:50] So you right now are sitting in Manhattan as a technologist charging,
[00:08:55] you know, costing me 100,000 a year and I can hire that same person
[00:08:58] in India because after all, you've told me you could be in India
[00:09:01] for what it's worth for 40 grand.
[00:09:03] These all of these arguments, that's where it has led.
[00:09:06] That's really my opening point was both sides have realized
[00:09:11] that they have options when it comes to labor.
[00:09:13] Right. Which is employment at will again, right?
[00:09:18] I mean, that really does become kind of a bedrock of a lot
[00:09:21] of these conversations and as you say, that cuts both ways.
[00:09:25] I don't want to get too stuck in this because I'd like to
[00:09:28] keep the conversation going.
[00:09:29] But to what extent do you think just the weight of pensions
[00:09:35] has contributed to this?
[00:09:37] Listen, very few companies and employers generally,
[00:09:41] the government and even the government has modified
[00:09:43] its pension offering.
[00:09:44] Have those anyway, I think back in the day,
[00:09:48] back in the day.
[00:09:49] Listen, it was there was as as rightly the article referred
[00:09:53] to and as you know, there was this social social contract.
[00:09:55] I worked for you for 30 years.
[00:09:57] You have some obligation to ensure that I enjoy the rest
[00:10:01] of my life post work.
[00:10:03] At least I'm able to eat and provide for myself
[00:10:06] and medical care, etc.
[00:10:07] It's the whole concept of Medicare and the like, right?
[00:10:10] That's the trade off.
[00:10:11] Once employees got really comfortable moving around
[00:10:15] and changing jobs instead of two jobs in your career,
[00:10:18] you have 20.
[00:10:19] What is the point of a pension?
[00:10:21] You're not going to be there long enough to invest in it
[00:10:23] anyway.
[00:10:24] So the pension with the way of the past,
[00:10:27] we went to more portable options like 401k plans
[00:10:31] and companies are contributing.
[00:10:32] Now they're not contributing and guaranteeing
[00:10:34] the way they used to do traditional plans.
[00:10:36] But I don't think that's it.
[00:10:38] I think it gets to the issue of pensions going away
[00:10:43] or yes, partly in response to companies needing
[00:10:47] to have more budget certainty.
[00:10:49] Interest rates go up, interest rates go down.
[00:10:52] That affects pension liability, etc.
[00:10:53] But the other part of it is employees were saying to us,
[00:10:56] I'm not going to be with you 30 years from now.
[00:10:58] Hell, I'm not going to be with you five years from now.
[00:11:00] So I don't need a pension.
[00:11:01] I need something else.
[00:11:03] And thus was born 401ks and now other versions of that.
[00:11:07] So I don't know.
[00:11:08] It's not a big pension issue anymore.
[00:11:09] That's the thing.
[00:11:10] No, not anymore.
[00:11:11] I just think that that is one of the catalysts.
[00:11:13] It's like people are living longer.
[00:11:16] I didn't budget for this amount of liability
[00:11:19] for this period of time.
[00:11:21] Someone's got to give.
[00:11:22] How do we push this back on to the employee
[00:11:26] and let her be responsible will help,
[00:11:29] but not to the extent certainly not guaranteeing
[00:11:32] like the old school plans used to do.
[00:11:35] Listen, we got it.
[00:11:36] This is a whole nother topic that I hope you will pull back up
[00:11:39] because I think you've touched something
[00:11:41] that is really a big conversation.
[00:11:44] We also did not factor the exponential growth in labor cost.
[00:11:50] And I was just looking at this the other day
[00:11:53] and I'm using rough numbers, but they're really close.
[00:11:56] The minimum wage in 2012 in retail
[00:12:02] in practice was about seven, eight bucks an hour.
[00:12:06] That's what people got as the norm
[00:12:08] and the federal minimum wage was seven bucks or so an hour
[00:12:11] and people made a little bit more,
[00:12:13] but that was the retail minimum wage.
[00:12:14] You're 17, 18.
[00:12:15] You work in the malls on weekends after hours.
[00:12:17] That's when you get.
[00:12:19] Fast forward that number is now $19 an hour
[00:12:24] in just a decade and a year.
[00:12:27] So 13 years, 11 years.
[00:12:30] In 11 years it has nearly tripled the cost of labor.
[00:12:36] Something has to give.
[00:12:38] And so employers are trying to sort through all of this
[00:12:41] and continue to protect the bottom line
[00:12:43] because if the company loses money, guess what?
[00:12:45] It doesn't exist.
[00:12:46] And we saw, as you know, when it came to pension back
[00:12:49] in the day, the first thing that goes away
[00:12:51] when a company files for bankruptcy
[00:12:53] is all of that pension liability.
[00:12:55] So back to your pension point.
[00:12:56] So this is all labor costs have exponentially grown.
[00:12:59] Hell, they've grown big time since COVID alone
[00:13:03] and companies are just trying to keep up.
[00:13:06] Well, yes and, okay, because we're talking.
[00:13:11] It wasn't, but three years ago,
[00:13:14] in some cases maybe even two years ago,
[00:13:16] the companies were bidding and basically talent hoarding.
[00:13:22] And so it's like I'm meta
[00:13:24] and I want the very best people.
[00:13:25] Like, you know, I want as many of the very best people.
[00:13:28] So I'm just going to go buy talent
[00:13:30] and just have it so you don't have it, alphabet.
[00:13:35] That happened, which is sort of what preceded
[00:13:37] the big tech layoffs.
[00:13:39] Well, hands down, but that's 30 companies.
[00:13:44] Okay, so I think sometimes the headline is meta
[00:13:47] and alphabet and blah, blah, blah.
[00:13:48] The vast majority of companies in America
[00:13:51] overwhelmingly are small and medium sized companies
[00:13:54] and they didn't have the opportunity to hoard talent.
[00:13:56] They were still operating on thin margins
[00:13:58] and they did not have hoards and hoards
[00:14:00] of people and layers of it.
[00:14:02] In fact, those small and medium sized companies
[00:14:05] were negatively impacted by that very behavior
[00:14:07] because they had to now fight for talent.
[00:14:10] No, that's my point.
[00:14:11] I mean, that's why I'm saying there is a ripple effect
[00:14:13] to this. There's a huge ripple effect,
[00:14:15] but Apple and Google and Meta
[00:14:18] and all the companies that were doing it
[00:14:20] were only responding to the demands of the employee.
[00:14:23] The employees said, if you want me to work here,
[00:14:25] you got to pay me a million dollars.
[00:14:26] Supply and demand though, right?
[00:14:27] I mean, that's the nature of a capitalistic market.
[00:14:31] And I love this until we said,
[00:14:35] some of that supply I can hire in India.
[00:14:39] Article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago,
[00:14:41] Guy was making 160,000 miles a year
[00:14:44] in Silicon Valley as an engineer.
[00:14:47] When they laid those people off
[00:14:49] and are continuing to lay them off,
[00:14:51] he had to go back to India
[00:14:52] because he was here on a visa, only a work visa.
[00:14:55] And he's working now for about 40,000 miles a year.
[00:14:58] That same guy with the same set of credentials
[00:15:00] doing the same amount of work
[00:15:02] just took a 70, 80% pay cut.
[00:15:05] So this thing cuts both ways.
[00:15:07] You know, it really does.
[00:15:09] That's where I'm scared to go, Johnny,
[00:15:10] is that, hey, I don't have the demand,
[00:15:13] therefore I don't need the supply.
[00:15:15] So it's sort of the other side of the coin
[00:15:19] that doesn't feel quite as good.
[00:15:20] But how do you...
[00:15:20] Well, let me say this before you go
[00:15:22] because this is really important.
[00:15:23] We use a lot of sports jargon, you and I do.
[00:15:26] And we do this a lot.
[00:15:27] We understand that the marquee player gets X
[00:15:32] and can demand certain perks
[00:15:34] and treatments and everything else.
[00:15:37] The person sitting on the bench
[00:15:38] makes X minus something, right?
[00:15:41] And you leverage when you are LeBron James
[00:15:45] or Steph Curry or whatever,
[00:15:46] and then you can negotiate.
[00:15:48] But when you are no longer as good as you used to be,
[00:15:51] what happens?
[00:15:52] The team trades you or they cut you.
[00:15:55] It's just, I mean, that's the nature of it.
[00:15:57] You leverage when you have to leverage
[00:16:00] the organization, no one would suggest that,
[00:16:02] oh my gosh, the company is horrible
[00:16:04] because, you know, play...
[00:16:05] The player is now 40 and can't shoot
[00:16:08] and run up and down the court
[00:16:09] as quickly as he did when he was 20.
[00:16:11] It's just we paid you
[00:16:12] when you were at the top of your game
[00:16:13] and you leveraged us and made us pay you
[00:16:15] an obscene amount of money.
[00:16:17] And now we're done with you.
[00:16:19] How about...
[00:16:20] No, okay, so this is kind of where
[00:16:23] I said where we would go.
[00:16:24] I know.
[00:16:26] I know I'm probably going to misuse this word,
[00:16:28] but kind of existentially,
[00:16:30] is loyalty even a concept worth debating?
[00:16:35] That's a real...
[00:16:36] That is the question that I've actually toyed with.
[00:16:40] I think there's value in it
[00:16:42] as long as we understand the limitations of it.
[00:16:45] Someone said the other day,
[00:16:46] they don't use the phrase work family
[00:16:50] because you don't divorce.
[00:16:51] You don't just walk away.
[00:16:53] I mean, I was going to go there later,
[00:16:54] so I'm glad you're here.
[00:16:55] Right?
[00:16:56] You don't come in and say,
[00:16:57] hey mom, you know, you were a great mom
[00:16:59] when I was a dependent,
[00:17:01] but now I don't need you so much,
[00:17:02] so you're out.
[00:17:04] But in corporate America, we do.
[00:17:06] Hey mom, your skills are not as useful to me anymore.
[00:17:10] So I think it's loyalty while I'm here.
[00:17:14] And employees have said that I'm loyal while I'm here,
[00:17:17] but I've not promised you
[00:17:18] that I'm going to be here five years from now.
[00:17:21] Employees have said that to us
[00:17:23] and a lot during the great resignation.
[00:17:25] Let's talk about this.
[00:17:26] I went all the way back to 1999,
[00:17:28] but we don't have to go that far.
[00:17:29] We can go 2018 all the way post COVID to 2021
[00:17:35] when employees were just walking in and saying,
[00:17:38] I can get more to go across the street.
[00:17:39] I know you've been great.
[00:17:40] I know you just pay for my MBA,
[00:17:42] which positioned me to get the job across the street.
[00:17:45] I know that I've had a great people manager.
[00:17:46] You've promoted me twice.
[00:17:47] I know you've done everything,
[00:17:48] but guess what?
[00:17:50] You too would have to go
[00:17:51] if someone gave you a $30,000 or $40,000 raise.
[00:17:54] That's what they've said to us.
[00:17:56] And so I push back and often say,
[00:17:59] so where is the loyalty?
[00:18:00] Or to your fundamental question,
[00:18:03] which I think is the right one is,
[00:18:05] do I need to be loyal to you?
[00:18:07] Do you need to be loyal to me?
[00:18:08] Maybe we just, we engage in this transaction
[00:18:10] and I get what I can get out of you while I'm here.
[00:18:12] You get what you can get out of me.
[00:18:14] And then when it's done, it's done.
[00:18:16] Okay.
[00:18:16] So where I would go in this one
[00:18:19] is I think that that is playing a very short game
[00:18:23] on both sides.
[00:18:25] Because I don't know if you're familiar
[00:18:27] with a book called Work Quake.
[00:18:28] Steve Cadigan wrote it.
[00:18:30] He was LinkedIn's first CHRO.
[00:18:33] And a very important point that he makes
[00:18:37] is that we should care about people
[00:18:40] for their whole career for a few reasons.
[00:18:44] Boomerang employees, right?
[00:18:46] So people leave, they come back, right?
[00:18:49] They're going to, another point would be
[00:18:50] they're part of our ecosystem.
[00:18:52] They may go be a customer of mine,
[00:18:55] a supplier of mine, a partner of mine.
[00:18:59] So we want to maintain good relationships with people.
[00:19:02] Even when they're not in our employ,
[00:19:04] from a talent perspective, there's also the,
[00:19:07] hey, I haven't worked there anymore,
[00:19:08] but I still really like that company.
[00:19:10] Johnny, you should apply there.
[00:19:11] You'd be a great fit at company X.
[00:19:15] So that playing a bit of a longer game,
[00:19:18] as Dory Clark would say,
[00:19:20] is actually the smart game to play.
[00:19:22] So yeah, if you want to view a transaction like that,
[00:19:26] that's okay.
[00:19:27] But if you can take a bigger view on both sides,
[00:19:31] on both sides.
[00:19:33] Both sides.
[00:19:34] That's the issue, Bob, is I agree violently with you.
[00:19:38] And I try to do that every day at Shurm
[00:19:40] and in every organization that I've worked in.
[00:19:42] Even when I wasn't CEO,
[00:19:44] I was trying to convince my CH, my CEO.
[00:19:47] But it's increasingly a hard argument
[00:19:50] that you want loyalty from me,
[00:19:53] but you're not willing to give me loyalty.
[00:19:56] The CEOs see it.
[00:19:57] The hiring managers see it.
[00:20:00] And so I come in as the HR person saying,
[00:20:02] we've got to take care of our people.
[00:20:04] We've got to, you know, re-skill them.
[00:20:07] Oh, and I paid for their MBA and the person,
[00:20:09] the day or the week that they graduated,
[00:20:11] they went across the street.
[00:20:13] That's what we call loyalty.
[00:20:15] So there's this increasingly corporate America is saying,
[00:20:18] there needs to be some reciprocity in this game.
[00:20:21] You want me to be loyal to you
[00:20:22] through the good and the bad,
[00:20:23] you've got to be loyal to you.
[00:20:25] You have to be loyal to me.
[00:20:27] And that is what I would say to the writer of the article
[00:20:31] is that we've got to be honest
[00:20:33] that both sides, employers and employees,
[00:20:36] if you want to get back, it's like a marriage.
[00:20:38] Like if you want me to be loyal to you wife,
[00:20:40] then you had sure as heck better be loyal to me
[00:20:43] as your husband.
[00:20:44] And you can't go out and cheat on me
[00:20:46] and expect me to sort of sit here and be here for you.
[00:20:49] Like it doesn't work that way.
[00:20:50] We've got to get back to it.
[00:20:51] So mutuality of loyalty.
[00:20:54] And if we could get there, good.
[00:20:56] Unfortunately, I don't think that's real.
[00:20:59] I think that is la la land because employees move
[00:21:03] and they told us they're going to move.
[00:21:05] They're willing to move.
[00:21:06] So there you have it.
[00:21:07] Why would I build a pension plan for a workforce
[00:21:10] where overwhelmingly 80% of them tell me
[00:21:12] I don't plan to be here 10 years from now?
[00:21:14] Well, why would I invest in a pension plan for you then?
[00:21:17] Right.
[00:21:18] So you hit on a couple of things
[00:21:20] and it gets back to the contract language,
[00:21:23] which is this mutuality, reciprocity.
[00:21:27] And then I think all of that kind of leads ultimately
[00:21:29] to trust.
[00:21:31] One of the things that we see, Johnny,
[00:21:32] with our clients at Career Club,
[00:21:34] and we work a lot with the candidate side
[00:21:38] of the equation is that they actually
[00:21:45] would hope for more longevity sometimes in these roles.
[00:21:50] If they're actually not looking to be free agents
[00:21:53] all the time and look, does money talk?
[00:21:55] Yes.
[00:21:56] But one of the big lessons that I think
[00:21:59] a lot of people took from the pandemic
[00:22:02] was compensation isn't everything.
[00:22:05] Work-life integration, like I need the ability
[00:22:07] to go take care of my mom.
[00:22:09] And I deal with the health issue
[00:22:12] that you guys provide some flexibility for
[00:22:15] and understanding.
[00:22:16] The work's just more interesting here
[00:22:18] than across the street.
[00:22:20] You guys actually have a purpose
[00:22:21] that I can get aligned with.
[00:22:24] Why do people quit jobs?
[00:22:25] What's the number one reason?
[00:22:26] My boss.
[00:22:27] Like I did, my boss wasn't great.
[00:22:30] And number two is money.
[00:22:33] They go back and back.
[00:22:36] I just want to make the case that there's
[00:22:39] so many other aspects that play on why there's loyalty.
[00:22:45] We've talked about this before
[00:22:46] and I don't think I'm sharing anything out of school.
[00:22:49] But some of the people at Career Club
[00:22:54] need flexibility for different reasons.
[00:22:57] And I am very happy to provide that to them
[00:23:01] because they are excellent colleagues.
[00:23:06] They produce at a very high level
[00:23:08] that if I thought about replacing them,
[00:23:11] it makes my tummy hurt.
[00:23:13] I don't want to think about it.
[00:23:14] So there's that mutuality
[00:23:18] and I get a phone call from somebody
[00:23:20] who's probably not making as much money
[00:23:22] as she could somewhere else.
[00:23:24] But the whole package fits her life much better
[00:23:29] and therefore that becomes a healthy relationship
[00:23:32] that we've got
[00:23:32] and it isn't just sort of a bidding war
[00:23:35] that I'm holding with her talent.
[00:23:38] And you are, first of all,
[00:23:41] a great people manager.
[00:23:42] I know this.
[00:23:42] Even people who've left there
[00:23:44] don't say negative things about you.
[00:23:46] That being said, not to me at least
[00:23:48] because they know I take it out on them.
[00:23:50] But I defend my brother.
[00:23:51] But no, that being said,
[00:23:53] I wished the world operated that way.
[00:23:56] And I think if you were polling
[00:23:58] and we do poll managers,
[00:24:01] we see people who've done everything right by
[00:24:05] will leave us if they're getting more money.
[00:24:08] And it depends upon how much money.
[00:24:09] Will they leave for five, 10%?
[00:24:11] No. 30%, 40%.
[00:24:13] Yes.
[00:24:14] And you almost can't blame them,
[00:24:16] but you can blame them.
[00:24:17] Because the point is if you want loyalty,
[00:24:21] it has to be reciprocated.
[00:24:23] I'd love to say to my spouse
[00:24:24] that just because a younger, richer,
[00:24:26] more handsome man walks in the door
[00:24:28] that you don't leave me.
[00:24:29] And if that's okay,
[00:24:31] then you can't scream bloody murder
[00:24:33] when I find a younger,
[00:24:34] more beautiful, richer woman.
[00:24:36] And I walk out on you and our three kids, right?
[00:24:39] You just this idea that you can have it both ways
[00:24:42] is the problem.
[00:24:43] And that's what I wish we would talk more about
[00:24:47] is be honest with yourself.
[00:24:49] How many times have you walked out on an employer
[00:24:53] who every day wasn't perfect
[00:24:55] and there's no such thing as a perfect relationship,
[00:24:57] marriages, friendships, nothing
[00:24:59] that you just left because you,
[00:25:01] A, I just wanted a change
[00:25:03] or B, I didn't like this.
[00:25:06] People leave us for a lot of reasons.
[00:25:08] And so employees have said
[00:25:10] let's do away with the fairy tale
[00:25:12] you want loyalty from me
[00:25:13] because I can't count on loyalty from you.
[00:25:17] Right. And so I think that,
[00:25:20] you know, again, can you get all the way to Nirvana?
[00:25:23] Probably not.
[00:25:25] But I do believe
[00:25:26] that it is a massive competitive edge
[00:25:29] for companies that to the greatest extent possible
[00:25:34] can demonstrate genuine care
[00:25:38] for the people in their employ
[00:25:41] because for the companies that are more,
[00:25:44] I don't mean this quite as pejoratively
[00:25:46] as I'm going to say it,
[00:25:47] but are more ruthless
[00:25:49] in how they think about their talent
[00:25:53] that supports their business.
[00:25:55] That's the one that actually seems to be more
[00:25:58] and you're the leader of all HR people in the world
[00:26:01] like who are more people-centric,
[00:26:03] more empathetic
[00:26:05] are going to have a significant competitive advantage.
[00:26:08] It doesn't mean I can guarantee you employment for life
[00:26:11] it doesn't mean that I can guarantee
[00:26:12] that you always be the highest paid person in your field
[00:26:16] but what I can strive for, aspire to
[00:26:20] is to create the best work-life integration
[00:26:24] that meets your needs, and ours.
[00:26:28] Of course, that's what we are all aspiring for
[00:26:31] which is why when you sent the article
[00:26:33] and yeah, these two things can be true
[00:26:38] that we as employers want an amazing employer brand
[00:26:41] for all the reasons that you discussed.
[00:26:43] I want an active alumni group
[00:26:45] that's supportive of me.
[00:26:46] I formally work there, it's a great place.
[00:26:48] I want all of that, check, check, check and check.
[00:26:51] I just think that when we poll employees,
[00:26:54] I'm going to go back to the argument
[00:26:56] we polled employees and they say
[00:26:58] you've not been loyal to me
[00:26:59] and then I say, oh my last employer wasn't loyal
[00:27:02] they laid me off.
[00:27:03] How many jobs did you have before that employer?
[00:27:05] Oh eight, how old are you?
[00:27:07] 30. Were you laid off before?
[00:27:10] No, I left voluntarily for the other seven
[00:27:13] and they don't hear themselves
[00:27:15] and I'm like well the other seven employers
[00:27:17] would say the same thing about you
[00:27:19] and so when that happens 161 million times
[00:27:22] which is the size of the U.S. workforce
[00:27:24] and I'm not suggesting everyone's turning
[00:27:26] but when it happens enough
[00:27:28] you train the companies to be less committed to loyalty.
[00:27:33] I'm going to treat you well while you're here
[00:27:37] that's what I mean.
[00:27:37] Two things can be true.
[00:27:39] You're advocating for treating people well etc
[00:27:42] and I don't think, I don't know an HR person
[00:27:44] in this world who would disagree with that
[00:27:46] but the question is for the long term
[00:27:48] or do we just agree that while you're here
[00:27:51] I'm going to do really right by you
[00:27:53] but at the time that you decide to move on
[00:27:55] or I decide to move on, that's it.
[00:27:57] That was fun.
[00:27:59] Well you mentioned something
[00:28:00] I was going to bring up anyway
[00:28:02] which is alumni groups.
[00:28:03] I think that is a massively underutilized
[00:28:08] force for good for the employer.
[00:28:11] I'm in Cincinnati as you know
[00:28:13] Procter & Gamble largest consumer package goods
[00:28:15] company in the world
[00:28:16] has an extremely robust global alumni network
[00:28:23] and it works to their advantage
[00:28:26] because they maintain a very positive relationship
[00:28:30] with people and so also
[00:28:32] you've got people who are bringing them innovation ideas
[00:28:35] bringing them talent
[00:28:37] doing all kinds of things
[00:28:39] bringing them distribution for their products
[00:28:42] so many things that work to Procter's benefit
[00:28:46] by taking a little bit of a longer view
[00:28:49] and Procter is famous
[00:28:50] for not hiring mid-career people.
[00:28:52] It's like you start at Procter
[00:28:54] you retire at Procter
[00:28:55] or you start at Procter
[00:28:56] and get hired away or do whatever
[00:28:59] but you still have this affinity for P&G
[00:29:03] that again I not even I think I know
[00:29:06] works to their tangible benefit.
[00:29:10] And I think that's true of so many companies.
[00:29:13] There are some outliers where that's not the case
[00:29:15] but the reality is I come from a law firm
[00:29:17] and I'm proud to say
[00:29:19] I was an associate or a partner at X law firm
[00:29:22] and they actually helped me
[00:29:24] when I decided to go in-house
[00:29:26] they said you go there because they were smart.
[00:29:28] One day this guy will be our client.
[00:29:29] We don't want to leave him here.
[00:29:31] He just shouldn't leave the law firm pissed off with us
[00:29:33] and we should want to support him in his endeavor.
[00:29:35] So you're right.
[00:29:36] There's a way to make this work
[00:29:38] but as we wrap I really want to get back
[00:29:41] to what I think is the real conversation.
[00:29:45] Employees and employers have to look
[00:29:49] in the proverbial mirrors
[00:29:51] and just say if I want loyalty from the organization
[00:29:55] am I giving the organization loyalty?
[00:29:57] If I want them to give me job security
[00:30:01] am I giving them security about my services?
[00:30:07] And if I know being honest with myself
[00:30:10] at that moment when no one else is around you
[00:30:12] that there is a number or a set of circumstances
[00:30:17] or a geography or an industry that would make me leave
[00:30:22] then I've got to be honest and say
[00:30:24] so why shouldn't the company do the same thing?
[00:30:26] Right and so this is what I love, love, love
[00:30:28] about talking to you is none of these things are binary.
[00:30:32] This is all going to continuum.
[00:30:35] And so I'm just advocating that nobody can make
[00:30:40] an absolute promise.
[00:30:41] I can't promise you employment for life.
[00:30:43] I'm not promising you I'm going to work here forever.
[00:30:46] However, however there is in our mutual best interest
[00:30:51] to continue to support each other the best way
[00:30:54] that works for our current and likely future circumstances.
[00:31:00] Because what we haven't talked about
[00:31:01] and this is the non-binary nature of it too
[00:31:04] is retention, productivity, engagement.
[00:31:09] And so if I feel like I'm being treated well
[00:31:12] and look I get into business
[00:31:13] and the company's got to do
[00:31:14] what the company's got to do on a given day
[00:31:17] but generally I believe that they want to help me
[00:31:22] and do right by me and continue to educate me whatever.
[00:31:28] I'm going to give them my best work.
[00:31:29] I'm going to proactively bring you my ideas Johnny
[00:31:32] instead of saying screw it like I don't care.
[00:31:35] I don't care so I'll do the bare minimum
[00:31:38] and have my lazy girl job.
[00:31:40] Yep.
[00:31:41] Back to another work wire episode but right versus
[00:31:45] now I'm a fully engaged associate at this company.
[00:31:48] I'm proud of what we do
[00:31:49] and I want to do my best work.
[00:31:51] I get fulfillment from doing that.
[00:31:54] I think the companies that can foster that environment
[00:31:56] stopping short obviously of you know
[00:32:00] guarantee for life and highest compensation
[00:32:04] and other kind of just over-the-top demands.
[00:32:08] Right.
[00:32:08] I think I mean I feel like this isn't just sort of mom
[00:32:12] and apple pie like Bob who would be against those things
[00:32:15] because what we're seeing in the data is
[00:32:17] people aren't finding even that level consistently.
[00:32:22] That's right.
[00:32:23] Bob you just nailed it and it made me think about
[00:32:25] some of our other conversations on this topic.
[00:32:28] I liken the workplace commitment
[00:32:32] the relationship between worker and employee
[00:32:37] a worker who is the employee by the way an employer
[00:32:40] to any other relationship a romantic relationship
[00:32:44] you know a marriage like let's agree
[00:32:47] about who we are and everyone's not for everyone.
[00:32:51] I think part of the problem that we're seeing is
[00:32:53] people have gone to organizations
[00:32:54] or organizations have recruited people
[00:32:57] because they want the talent of the day
[00:33:01] and they haven't looked to your point are we matched?
[00:33:04] Do I agree with your values?
[00:33:06] Do I agree with the way you work?
[00:33:07] Do I like we have to be very careful as employers
[00:33:11] not to just put our best foot forward
[00:33:14] during the recruitment process and court
[00:33:17] to use the language people and only tell them
[00:33:20] you should be honest about how our organization works
[00:33:23] and you've heard me say this before
[00:33:24] we should hire for people who are technically competent
[00:33:28] but also and equally culturally aligned.
[00:33:33] Part of the loyalty disconnect is
[00:33:36] we have over corrected by hiring in many instances
[00:33:39] the person who is the best qualified right?
[00:33:42] The best set of credentials degrees and we haven't looked
[00:33:45] for cultural alignment.
[00:33:47] Well that's the beginning of a disloyalty problem
[00:33:50] because you only want me on my best day.
[00:33:52] You don't want me if I go through a divorce
[00:33:54] you don't want me if right
[00:33:56] if I have to leave early to go take care
[00:33:59] and go to my kids basketball game
[00:34:00] like you don't want that person you want a machine
[00:34:03] you pay me a lot of money
[00:34:04] and you want me to deliver like that
[00:34:05] and you don't care about the other things.
[00:34:07] Those are cultural questions
[00:34:09] that need to be addressed on the front end.
[00:34:11] Yes. Right?
[00:34:12] If you hire me purely
[00:34:14] and I'm gonna go back to the sports analogy.
[00:34:17] You know I've seen and heard of players
[00:34:20] in professional sports who've said
[00:34:22] I know my wife's having a baby
[00:34:23] but we got a big game today
[00:34:25] but you know that when you walk in the door
[00:34:28] this is how the NBA and the NFL work.
[00:34:30] You wouldn't expect me to say that to you at Charm
[00:34:33] it's because I didn't tell you that
[00:34:35] I also don't pay like that
[00:34:37] I'm sorry.
[00:34:37] Right?
[00:34:39] So it's all about being honest
[00:34:40] I think the reason we have loyalty
[00:34:42] the sense that the contract is broken
[00:34:44] is because neither side has revisited
[00:34:47] the terms of the contract
[00:34:48] and being honest about how this relationship
[00:34:51] is gonna work.
[00:34:52] Well I am very very glad
[00:34:54] that Johnny C Taylor Jr.
[00:34:56] is at the helm of Charm
[00:34:58] because you're leading hard conversations.
[00:35:00] It's a tough one.
[00:35:01] It is a tough one
[00:35:03] and it impacts everybody
[00:35:04] you know if we care about
[00:35:07] workers in the workplace
[00:35:09] then that pretty much impacts everybody
[00:35:11] I know and so you know
[00:35:14] just having open honest educated informed
[00:35:19] conversations about this
[00:35:21] that are driven by both values and data
[00:35:24] is going to make the workplace a better place
[00:35:26] not a perfect place but better
[00:35:29] and you know that's what I love
[00:35:30] about doing the work wire with you
[00:35:31] is we have the opportunity
[00:35:33] to unpack these things a little bit
[00:35:34] and hopefully cause people to think
[00:35:36] go back to their workplace
[00:35:38] and say hey I heard something
[00:35:39] I'd like to see how that fits here
[00:35:42] so for that I appreciate you
[00:35:43] so thank you.
[00:35:44] I want to thank you
[00:35:46] because I loved this conversation
[00:35:48] I tell you people walk up and say
[00:35:50] you always agree
[00:35:52] we're not disagreeing
[00:35:53] we just are the goal here
[00:35:55] is to make sure that
[00:35:56] our listening audience
[00:35:58] takes both
[00:35:59] or at least sometimes
[00:35:59] it's three or four different perspectives
[00:36:01] and you know it's just
[00:36:03] take the and say
[00:36:04] I hadn't thought about that before
[00:36:05] don't just listen to this
[00:36:07] for someone to agree with you
[00:36:08] because that's the whole problem
[00:36:09] I think in all of our conversations
[00:36:11] is people go to the media
[00:36:12] that is likely to tell them
[00:36:14] what they want to hear
[00:36:15] but I love about what you
[00:36:17] and this is your baby
[00:36:18] and I have to give credit to the man
[00:36:20] right the that
[00:36:22] this is a conversation
[00:36:23] we're going to give you both sides
[00:36:25] or maybe three or four sides
[00:36:26] of the conference
[00:36:27] and then walk away and say
[00:36:28] how can I be a better people manager
[00:36:31] hire an HR person
[00:36:33] like in my practice
[00:36:36] employees
[00:36:37] that's why you got me
[00:36:39] better employee
[00:36:40] like right ask myself
[00:36:42] I want loyalty from my employer
[00:36:44] am I willing to give that same level
[00:36:46] whatever the level is
[00:36:47] am I willing to give
[00:36:48] that same commitment
[00:36:50] and I got to say this
[00:36:51] before I go
[00:36:52] an employee came in
[00:36:53] told me they were going to leave
[00:36:54] for it was a really big job for him
[00:36:56] and I said that's great
[00:36:57] I understand it
[00:36:59] how would you have felt
[00:37:00] if I said well you know
[00:37:01] I've gotten to the point of my career
[00:37:02] where I wanted other experiences
[00:37:04] etc and I found this other place
[00:37:07] and I said so you've been interviewing
[00:37:08] you've been showing up to my meetings
[00:37:10] you've been at my house
[00:37:11] you've been going over
[00:37:11] you've done all these things with me
[00:37:13] and you were interviewing
[00:37:14] how would you have felt
[00:37:15] if I'd said you know
[00:37:17] Sally's been with us for 10 years
[00:37:19] I think I could find
[00:37:21] a different person out there
[00:37:22] and I was out interviewing
[00:37:24] you think everything's wonderful
[00:37:26] right and you found out
[00:37:27] that I was interviewing candidates
[00:37:29] to replace you
[00:37:31] how would you have felt
[00:37:33] and she just looked at me
[00:37:34] and I said yeah
[00:37:35] that's the problem with loyalty
[00:37:37] you want it from me
[00:37:38] you're not prepared to give it to me
[00:37:40] and that's the mutuality aspect
[00:37:43] of this and reciprocity
[00:37:44] like you were cheating on me
[00:37:47] and you'd be really pissed
[00:37:48] if you found out
[00:37:49] that I was out interviewing
[00:37:50] for it to replace you
[00:37:52] yeah so again
[00:37:55] all I can say is you're awesome
[00:37:56] I appreciate the
[00:37:59] just real thinking adult level
[00:38:02] conversation on hard topics
[00:38:04] and to get people to not just
[00:38:07] as you say kind of align
[00:38:09] with the one data feed
[00:38:10] that they get on something
[00:38:12] but to really kind of think
[00:38:13] you know I hadn't thought about
[00:38:14] that way Johnny that's true
[00:38:16] I think it kind of sucked
[00:38:17] when you fired me
[00:38:18] but I guess I fired you
[00:38:20] and I quit
[00:38:21] I never really framed it
[00:38:23] that way in my head
[00:38:24] so let's keep unpacking these topics
[00:38:26] this is awesome
[00:38:27] in the meantime
[00:38:28] you are the man
[00:38:29] I'm just having your presence
[00:38:31] everyone thank you so much
[00:38:32] for taking a few minutes out
[00:38:33] of your day to listen
[00:38:34] to John and I talk about
[00:38:36] a tough topic
[00:38:37] if you've got thoughts
[00:38:37] we'd love for you to email us
[00:38:39] I'm at bob at career.club
[00:38:41] Johnny's Johnny Taylor
[00:38:42] at sherm.org
[00:38:43] we'd love to hear your thoughts
[00:38:44] you can post on LinkedIn
[00:38:46] we just love to hear from you
[00:38:47] but we do appreciate you
[00:38:49] and thanks again
[00:38:49] for taking a few minutes
[00:38:50] of your day with us
[00:38:51] Johnny bless you
[00:38:53] thank you so much
[00:38:53] Thank you
[00:38:54] You're welcome
[00:38:55] Check out career.club
[00:38:56] for personalized help
[00:38:57] with your job search
[00:38:58] visit shrm.org
[00:39:00] to become part
[00:39:01] of the largest human resources organization
[00:39:03] worldwide
Sponsors
