Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 36: Live from W@W San Antonio

[00:00:00] All right, Totally Rewarding Chats coming from WorldatWork in San Antonio. Still raining if you listen to it as we keep going, even though it should be out a couple weeks. It might still be raining in two weeks for all we know the way it's been going. I am here with Paul Reimann. How is it going, sir? It's going. It's going. You continue to do the opening. That's great. It is. I don't know why. I think you just know my pie hole will open before yours. Right. I just want to look pretty.

[00:00:29] You're looking good. Yeah. For those that are on YouTube, you can attest whether he looks pretty or not. If you're not watching on YouTube, he looks fantastic. He looks amazing. Still in the bow tie. I will say I don't know how you rock the bow tie all day long. I have to refresh it a few times, but since I have one more opportunity to speak on stage today, I need to look smart. Okay. I can't even look smart. That's great. We are stoked to have Sam Reeve with us today. How's it going?

[00:00:59] Going great. I'm glad to be here. I was hoping for some sun and some warmth in San Antonio. It didn't pan out. Your hopes have been dashed. They are not happening. Literally flooded away with the emergency alerts that we've been getting through the sessions. You can tell when everyone looks, you're like, it's a different ring. Right.

[00:01:22] So, Sam, give us your background so that we don't screw it up. Kind of your background or where you're at now and we'll go from there. Sure. So, I am the CEO and also the head of Gradar USA in the United States here. And my background is a little bit like this. So, I started in compensation 25 years ago.

[00:01:42] I worked at some large firms. I spent a lot of times cutting my teeth at Barclays and doing a lot of international compensation there across the globe. And then moved to BlackRock, which was a great transition. I did an acquisition of the company I was at. And it was a really interesting time because I got into a little bit more talent management and career architecture.

[00:02:09] And that kind of shaped my compensation outlook going forward. So, something we can talk about today. Yeah. Awesome. So, we start every session and we're being consistent while we're here with a speed round of questions. So, are you a coffee or tea person? More coffee. Yeah, I like coffee. That keeps me going for sure. The follow-up question now that's coming, are you a coffee snob? No, I'm not a coffee snob. I'll drink just about anything.

[00:02:37] There you go. If it's brown, it's going down. That's right. That's correct. Yes. Okay. Compa ratio or range and position? I like range penetration. Yeah. I wasn't even one of the options, Sam, but I like that you had lift. Range and position. That's because you said it backwards. Range and position. Oh, oh, oh. You confused it. Okay. He corrected me. He did. Which, two days in, that happens a lot. You don't know how many times I've been corrected. Same concept. Position and range and position. Actually, the point being for me, not compa ratio.

[00:03:06] I really prefer not compa ratio. It's more translatable to people out in the market. Yeah, for sure. People know what you're talking about. It's like, okay, you're 50% the way through. They get it. All right. Paul, ask the next question because we have updated how we're asking. We have updated our language. So you are unencumbered for a weekend. If you have a partner or a spouse, they are with their friends doing something fun, and they want you to have a guilt-free, pleasure-filled weekend that you want. Yes.

[00:03:32] Are you choosing it to go roughing it, camping in the woods, or are you going to go find a nice, posh resort? Okay. Well, I've heard this question on previous podcasts. This is a difficult one because I'm for the journey type of thing. So it's like usually I go for the view or the destination, and that can be in either one. But if I have to hike 30 miles in and camp, I'll do it. Not a problem. But I do enjoy roughing it more than resorts. All right. That is the right answer. Now, have we framed it the other way?

[00:04:02] If we said you and your family, would there be a different answer? No. They can't stand the cities and crowds. There you go. That's great. That's awesome. The more nature, the better for them. Great. That's awesome. And by the way, Paul asked that question, and my wife does listen to these once in a while. I do not feel unencumbered that I'm cumbered if she comes with me. I'm just, she's away doing something more fun. That was the point. That was the point, but I just want to be clear for my own well-being, Paul, not for anyone else's.

[00:04:31] The question was understood. I just wanted to make sure I didn't get called out as we go. Fair, fair. So I know you travel a bunch, and now that you correctly answered the prior question, what is the place that you've been to on vacation that you think someone else should go? Well, I just got back from Japan, which was, you know, I'm getting some jet lag right now, so I'll try to keep it together during the podcast, but a phenomenal place.

[00:04:57] I mean, the culture, the people, it's just, and I did a lot of research there. I spent about a month in Japan, and so on comp, and what really drives performance there, and it's just fascinating, you know, what I learned. So great. Yeah. Awesome. And then the really super one, are you a crunchy or creamy peanut butter person? So this is, I'll do both, but I like, I probably do creamy more than crunchy. There you go.

[00:05:25] If you can't tell by the I'll do both, Sam is a consultant. That's right. And we'll answer to make sure all people are happy. That's right. That's correct. We don't want to segment the market. Yeah. So as you came... Hey, this is William Tinca. Listen, we did a series for iSolved called Heroes of HR, where we talked to HR practitioners. And these are just your run-of-the-mill, every day, slogging it out, 300 employees, and Cedar Rapids, HR pros.

[00:05:55] Mostly, it's centered around iSolved, and they're what they do with iSolved. But also, they talk a lot about kind of the day-to-day rigor of HR. If you're curious about that, search for Heroes of HR wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Mike, let's just start and open with what were you looking forward to when you're coming here? And have you been here a day or two? Yeah, yeah. A couple days so far. So I came in and...

[00:06:20] But, you know, really the perspective on how the industry is looking at AI and how that's changing. Because, you know, that's been an interesting evolution here at World at Work a couple of years ago, four years ago. I mean, everybody was just, you know, whoa, what is this? They're freaked out. And then they started slowly adopting, and then you started seeing it in software. And then now it's pretty... Everybody's accepted it. And now the question is, okay, what's next? So it's a journey.

[00:06:48] I like to see how it evolves. Yeah. I think two years ago, you might remember on our panel, I talked about, is AI a toy or a tool? That was the decision point. I think that question's been answered. It's a tool. Right. Now the question is, well, what kind of tool is it? Like, is it a little tool? Is it the, you know, the micro Allen wrench that only works to serve one problem? Or is it the hammer you can do a lot with? Is it the Swiss Army? Well, it's all of them, right? I think they're learning.

[00:07:14] And also where they belong, I think, is also, does my vendor do it for me? Do I use a third party? Do I do it myself? So I agree with you 100%. You said it much more professionally, Sam. Like, I think there was an oh shit moment a year or two, three years ago of what is it? And now they're like, it is accepted. How do I best use it for my workplace? And that to me is a different vibe that's happening here. Right. Did you get to any of the sessions? I spent some time on a few of them. And so it was interesting.

[00:07:43] It just came from one on merit pay, which was fascinating. So I'm seeing how things develop there. Okay. I know you had a specific question. Well, one thing I've noticed, just because Sam being the U.S. CEO of Gradar, right, there's not much about EU pay transparency on the agenda, which I find fascinating. I think some of that's timing. I think many of us thought maybe that would be a past topic by now because of the deadline. It's not. But job evaluation is coming back as sort of a vibe I've said, right?

[00:08:14] And I myself, I would say kind of poo-pooed job evaluation at one point in my career as being overly specific. I would love to hear your take on like job evaluation using like point factor methods. Like I called it the old way, but I think the old way is the new way again. But I'd love to hear your view on that. Yeah, exactly. So it's always about right. You know, here's the consultant answer, right? It's about right fit. You know, whether you're using what style of job evaluation, whether it's classification method or point factor.

[00:08:42] But when you're looking at compliance with the EU pay transparency directive, I mean, they want something that's robust. You know, they want something that they can measure. And so that falls more into data-driven methodologies like what Gradar provides and the point factor model. So it's just, it comes down to this. I mean, if you build a structure, a job structure, and then you lay it over things and then you can, you see what fits and what doesn't fit, right?

[00:09:08] And then, but you know, there's some areas of the organization or countries across the globe where it's a, you know, round, square peg, round hole, right? But you gotta, you gotta try to make it fit. So it's like either, you know, you know, increase the size of that hole. So the square peg fits in or, or, or shrink the, the square peg, right? So the, the benefit of having a measurable technique, like the point factor method, you can say, okay, how far is it away?

[00:09:37] You know, it's like, what's the, you know, a good example is like, if you're thinking about how far is Paris from here, it's like, wow, it's a long way. It's like, well, what does that mean? You know, is that 500 kilometers or, you know, what? And then is, is what if I'm walking or what if I'm taking the bus or taking the train? You know, there's a different answers. And so having that data driven methodology helps you really dial in to what you need to fix to ensure that things are absolutely equitable. Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:10:06] I think what my aha moment was when I started using the language of P3 plus, right? Like, and I heard it come out of my mouth. I'm like, well, that you just said it differently, which is, well, that means I'm close. The job is close, but how close, right? I was just applying my judgment, whereas a point factor method. And the reason I wanted to bring it up is when we think about how AI is affecting comp and comp tech, there's some things that AI is going to make really easy and maybe disappear. And there's some things that AI isn't.

[00:10:35] And sound methodology is one that AI can't replace, right? Like you got to tell it what to do. And point factor as a job evaluation method is a methodology. And it's like, that's something that AI doesn't make disappear, right? Like the robots aren't going to know how to do that. They might apply it. There's AI use cases for putting that to work. Yeah. But what are the right factors? How do we think about them as something that's AI resilient? Yeah, exactly. Well, we'd like to hope it's AI resilient. I mean, the future will tell.

[00:11:05] But right now, as far as the EU directive, I mean, they want a human really looking at things. I mean, humans determining human pay and fairness. And so it's important to take that along. But as far as elaborating on the importance of job evaluation, I think that is becoming more and more important now than ever. Yeah. Because there's just tons of jobs that are being created and destroyed on a regular basis and evolving. It's like, how do you keep up with this?

[00:11:32] You have to have a way to kind of look at this over and over again. Yeah, that's a good point. I think there's more. Oh, there's no. Oh, thanks. Just I've worked with Philippe a while now from Kinto. He's decided to mute me for part of it. That's right. I don't know if that was his own doing or that was Paul giving him a signal on the side while I wasn't looking. Oh, Paul did it. I just looked over. He said Paul reached over and has now figured out how the soundboard works.

[00:12:03] I think it is cool that there's the point factor and then to be able to adjust. Like I think that human thing we actually talked about it earlier. There are some companies where a graphic designer has more value and less value as you go. And so being able to have a starting point and then the other piece that always strikes me with having point factor more so. Is that we're getting to more individual roles like N equals one and your role pricing and you're doing whatever.

[00:12:28] So how do you actually have a band or, you know, a grade for somewhere where there's a role of one? Yeah. Right. And so actually you can put them in bands. And I think about benefits practices and other stuff where I think comp people don't always think about where if I have them in a band, you're seeing more companies do benefits by band. You're seeing them do whatever. So there's cross application to having or if people have heard me in sessions, getting your foundation order. I just say getting your shit together. It's a little more blue collar.

[00:12:56] But I think it's really important and gets overlooked a lot of times because people want to do all the really cool stuff that you can do with AI. Right. But if you don't start at a really solid foundation, it all kind of falls apart. That's right. That's the key. You got to have you have to have that. I mean, it starts with data. Right. Right. That's the ultimate foundation. Then you do structure and then you can. I mean, the whole thing with AI is we want to get strategic. Right. We want to we want to stop doing the the tactical stuff and elevate our profession. Sure.

[00:13:23] So I think that's I think it'll allow us to get there, especially with the right systems. Yeah. Do you have any take on the EU, the EUPTD? I'm kind of curious. And are you seeing that translate back to the U.S. companies? Because I'm with Paul. Well, I there you know, there's a couple people here that are in the pay equity space. But other than that, there are actually less sessions this year than last. And probably those that aren't. In some compensated way being, you know, driven. So, you know, not from a demand.

[00:13:52] Are you seeing that really be the case in the U.S.? Because you have an interesting tie with Philip into Germany and what's going on in the actual, you know, great are for those who don't know a German based or founded company. Side question. Do you think Philip in the background should get a new Millennium Falcon? Because he's had the same one in his background for a long time. I watch all the stars. I mean, they seem to be the same one in each episode. Well, I guess that's true.

[00:14:20] But like we got to get him a new Lego set or something. You're very sensitive to the background. Well, it's just with Philip. That is funny, though. That is that is great. Yeah. So are you seeing like a I felt like for a while, Europe started. The U.S. started to follow. And now I feel like they're separating again on paths a little bit, despite the fact that some of the EU companies are kicking the can down the road on the deadlines. Well, I think I think the philosophy is sound.

[00:14:47] I mean, what they're trying to achieve in fairness and so forth and understand the whole world is trying to do that. We're trying to get more transparency. And I think that's the right path. Now, the EU, you know, I often think of you. I mean, they're big philosopher type people. Right. So they go, what's the place that they want to get to? And then they say, oh, shit, it takes a long time. It doesn't really stop getting there. And they lose. And they as they start putting things to the steps.

[00:15:15] So I think that once they figure it out of how they want to put together the plan of getting there and regulation, we're going to see that kind of fold through the U.S. It's going to start. I suspect it's going to go through Canada first, hit California and then glide right on through to the East Coast. Yeah. I think part of the challenge, too, I like I have my extended family over every Sunday night. And if I ask the question, OK, it's time for dinner. What do you want? It takes a long time to get to an answer. Right.

[00:15:43] And it's that's that's the EU PTD in a nutshell. Right. Like we all we all agree we want dinner. Yeah. But now everybody gets to weigh in on what they want for dinner. It's going to take a while. So I think that's the dynamic, the political, cultural dynamic of every country now moves at its own pace. Like there isn't it's not a federalized implementation, which, you know, being U.S. me, I guess like I didn't realize that at first, like this is going to take forever to get through the political systems, the social systems in every country.

[00:16:11] I think the political but also the there's really one way to fix pay equity. Right. And so I step back. Right. I mean, I know there was one company that reduced pay for men to fix pay equity and that went as well as you could imagine it would go. So in general, though, it's a cash plus business or risk if I hold people out. Right. Right. And where we are in the world right now in the economy, economically, I see a little conspiracy theory ish.

[00:16:39] I see some of the countries pushing back because if I need to go fix this mandatorily, I'm going to put a financial burden on the companies that are in my country. Yeah. And how is that going to bear out for me? And so if I slow this down and hopefully the world catch up, catches up, I think that's a little piece of it when you look at what's going on. I think that's a good bet. But, you know, the thing is, is that economic pressures aren't going to go away anytime soon.

[00:17:04] I mean, we're talking a lot in the next five years are going to be tough for you and just about demographically. I mean, we're talking. Yeah. Are you seeing more American companies use the point factor? Where are you seeing the growth? Because since with your grayed R hat on. Yeah. So really what helps is when we're, you know, I specialize in multinationals.

[00:17:25] And so if we're looking at multinational companies that have a significant presence in the EU or plans on that growth, then I usually recommend them getting on more of a data-driven methodology like a grayed R in the point factor method. But, of course, if this is a U.S. company and they're small, they're agile, maybe, you know, the classification is just fine for them to start out with. And then they, you know, as they grow up or get more complex, then you worry about at that time.

[00:17:55] So any sessions before we get to wrapping up? What are you looking forward to the rest? Are you here through the rest of the show? Yeah, yeah. I'm going to be here tomorrow and I'll be flying out to the next thing. So, but yeah, so I'm really interested in more seeing how the technology and, you know, looking at my partners here and meeting with my friends and so forth. And, you know, the sessions are always excellent and they're great.

[00:18:21] But unfortunately, I just don't have my team here this year to attend all of them. Yeah. It is just real quick for those who will attend Nashville in the future, right? Like, don't judge the conference just on the agenda and don't judge the conference just on the expo hall and don't judge the conference just on the attendee list. The combination is what makes it work. So you just made it kind of an important little point. Like you didn't come here to necessarily sit in every session and try to learn it all.

[00:18:49] You came here to network with others in the ecosystem that you can play nice with. Well, that's the big thing. I mean, you know, talking to people, I mean, that's I think that's one thing that will never go away. I mean, seeing you guys here is great and just fostering relationships face to face, you know, I think is a big piece of conferences. You know, I do love that World at Work is recording a lot of these sessions because there's a lot that is really interesting that I don't want to miss out on. So I'll be definitely looking at those in the following week. It's definitely the deal.

[00:19:18] You know, the world's going to struggle getting paid if something happens in San Antonio because there's, you know, 2000. Yeah. It's the community, right? It's 2000 of us in one spot. So it's there's a value to the quickness with which you can have lots of conversation. Right. Right. Like this. I know you just you said you've enjoyed all your sessions, you know, over the years. So you haven't been to any of mine. So I need to get you to at least one at some point in time.

[00:19:43] We always end with and you have a unique perspective now that you're repping both of those and with your background. If you could automagically solve one thing in HR, what would you solve? Yeah, this is a good one. And I and and, you know, I had it and I was thinking about this ahead of the show and I was trying to figure out something. But, you know, the big thing is, is that, you know, look, what could we do? You know, we could do it. Fix one thing.

[00:20:06] Well, I think that a way to one thing that's super broken and I think in compensation professionals kind of miss a lot is the lack of quality communication around the organization. If every every organization I work with, if they have a communication problem, they're messed up. I mean, you got to you have managers have to understand how to communicate to their subordinates about what needs to be done for performance.

[00:20:36] Performance management program needs to be trusted and people need to train on that. The compensation programs and benefits need a regular communication for those new hires and so forth. Companies routinely screw that up over and over and over again. And it damages their pay for performance and compensation programs overall. Yeah. Yeah. The communications to me, everyone, a lot of people pick that and talk about it.

[00:21:01] I think for comp people in particular with pay transparency, et cetera, there's a huge opportunity to because what you used to have to try to communicate without sharing too much, which is a hard thing to do. Right. Like one of those games you almost play where you put the note on your head. Like that's how I think in my mind was always trying to explain your pay philosophy to somebody because we can't actually share the ranges. We can't actually share it. But we have to tell you somehow in this game that you're paid fairly.

[00:21:30] You're now can share that like with pay transparency. It's almost OK and better to do that because you have to. So I think there's a huge opportunity on the comp side. Yeah. I think if there's a clear map going forward, if people can know their career progression, that clear communication, that clear communication can really help engagement and performance retention overall. Yeah. And I think you can't start with just what's required from pay transparency.

[00:21:55] Just like I know that's not what you were saying, but like if people aren't educated and enabled on why this even exists to begin with. Right. Like then you're starting from behind. Right. If you're starting in that. Again, you didn't say this, but if you're starting with I have to show you your pay range. Here's your pay range. You've lost. That's right. Right. Why do we have pay ranges? Where does it come from? Why do we think about it that way? Exactly. Right. That you can share that now, which is cool. Correct. Correct. Thanks so much for taking time. I know you came from Japan.

[00:22:22] You're here trying to maximize all your time out there and you either chose or were voluntold to spend time with us. So I really appreciate you taking time out. That was great, guys. I really appreciated the conversation. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.