You’re More Than Your Job Title. So Why Are You Building Your Career Around One?

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[00:00:40] This is William Tincup and you are listening and hopefully watching the You Should Know podcast with Dr. Sarah Beth Bickerton. Did I pronounce that right? Yeah, Sarah Beth Burke Bickerton. You get married, names get longer.

[00:01:00] You know, before we get into the show, I've always wondered, is there correlation or causation in when women insert their maiden name in LinkedIn? Like, is that an indicator of something's wrong? Oh, that's an interesting question to go down. You know what I'm saying? It's like fight or flight, right?

[00:01:25] So, what, what, if you know me as, okay, let's say my wife's case, Michael Grissett, or no, Michael Tincup. And then all of a sudden, 10 years into the marriage, she then puts Michael Grissett Tincup. Mm-hmm. Is that, is, is a signal? Is there a signal? You know? You could read a lot into that.

[00:01:49] Yeah. My problem was I didn't get married until I was in my 40s. And so I had enough brand reputation as Sarah Beth Burke. My book says Sarah Beth Burke. I was like, I can't get rid of my last name. I have to like do this long name now. And it's also not, not picking on LinkedIn for any reason, particular reason, but maiden names aren't searchable. Totally. Isn't that crazy? I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:16] They're not searchable. Your first and last name is searchable. Wow. But not your maiden name. Excuse me. Oh, LinkedIn. So many things to pick on. What are we going to do? How are we going to fix LinkedIn? Just blow it up. I just found out that their earn out is in 2030. 2030. So basically they make all their money between here and 30. Okay. Game on.

[00:02:44] So look for price increases. God. Just FYI, if you're really LinkedIn dependent, yeah, it's going to be a tough five years for you. Oh, they gouge already. Oh, oh yeah. Oh, the hate, the hatred of LinkedIn. It's so unfortunate because they came in peace.

[00:03:04] They did. They were the first like real social network for professionals and then it got out of control and now it's just oversaturated and nobody can really use it. And yet it still reigns as the supreme power.

[00:03:15] And every once in a while you'll have someone, we're going to replace LinkedIn. I'm like, I think it's like replacing Q-tips. You're not going to replace Q-tips. It's a Q-tip now. It's made its way. Let's do introductions. Tell us a little bit about you.

[00:03:35] Well, I'm Sarah Beth Burke, Bickerton, and I call myself a professional identity researcher and I'm the founder of More Than My Title, which is a platform to help people discover and decode who they really are besides their job titles. And we're not doing DNA. With DNA? DNA? No, I mean, we're not doing, this isn't going down the path of DNA and 23andMe and Ancestry. Because I could see that being a play too.

[00:04:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're actually doing the assessment, the harder part of understanding who they actually are. Yeah, I'm doing the inner work, which everybody skips over and misses. In all career development, we jump right to what are you good at? What are your skills? What are your passions? Your aptitudes? Your degrees? And no one ever stops and asks, but who are you? How do you see yourself when you're doing all these things? What do you call that? And literally, professional identity is the starting point.

[00:04:31] Because if you don't know who you are, you can't explain why you do what you do. Right. Well, professional identity and identity in general, there's an interesting crossroads of, again, professional identity. Again, they could be the same thing. Totally get it.

[00:04:52] However, it's been my experience, especially when it comes to race and gender and religion, that people take on a facet of that. And some, I would say, like, say, Jewish folks. What's the difference between the religion, the culture, the language? You know, like, okay, you got all that identity. Now you have a professional identity.

[00:05:20] And again, these things can be closely aligned or they can completely be different. I mean, you're tapping on the bigger idea that identity is a huge topic. We could spend all day on this. I like to say that it's a spectrum. We have multiple dimensions of ourselves, race, class, gender, age, background. But one of those dimensions is just who are you in your work? Right. And we mostly use our job titles. And why that's problematic is because job titles are generic. They're meaningless and they're oversaturated.

[00:05:50] So if you're trying to show up as what makes you unique and stand out and you're like, I'm a project manager, I'm a coach, I'm a strategist. Well, guess what? So are 2 million other people. It doesn't mean anything. And they're not standardized. I know you were going to get to that, but they're not standard. A project manager is not a project manager. So we could have 100 of them and you get 400 different definitions of what a project manager is. Completely. Yeah, we've got a semantics problem.

[00:06:17] So I help people figure out how to articulate who they are so they make sense to other people. They're not just jargon and garbly gook. They actually have a rationale and a reason. Like a client I worked with realized she's really a moment architect. She had been working in events and taking photographs and doing planning. But why was she doing all that? Because she loved capturing the moments, being this moment architect. That became her pitch, right?

[00:06:45] It's more comprehensible and relatable. So are you a buyer or seller of bring your authentic self to work? It's a double-edged sword because a lot of people misuse that phrase for a zillion reasons. I do think I am a supporter of authenticity. I don't want people to feel boxed in, compartmentalized, or like they have to hide or minimize parts of themselves.

[00:07:12] So I think being your authentic self is knowing who you are to begin with. Right. And letting other people know who you are is important for them too. Exactly. So those concentric circles that go around you, they have to understand. It's better for them to understand who you are. Well, most people assume you understand me. I'm like, well, why don't people just get me? My boss doesn't understand me. No one sees my value.

[00:07:41] And it's like, well, do you see your own value? Do you know how to understand yourself first? And they go, what do you mean? I was talking to a woman and she said, yeah, I'm really good at problem solving. And I was like, well, great. There's thousands of problems. Which kind are you good at? And she's like, oh, like she had to explain that to me. And so we're making these assumptions that were not being understood, but were the culprit of not conveying ourselves. And then once we do, people can see and understand us better. Right.

[00:08:10] So there is a, there is still is, excuse me. It's an assessment called the Berkman. And it's out of Houston, Texas. And we used it 15, 20 years ago. And what it did is it basically analyzed your communications. So how do you like to receive? And how do you give?

[00:08:34] And so basically what it, what it helped, and it actually did really help me is I make decisions really fast. So I'll analyze something and then make a decision. And then I walk away. I'm on to the next thing. Whereas my business partner at the time is more reflective.

[00:08:55] And, and, and, and again, he wants to do a little bit of, he wanted to do a little bit of research, talk to a couple people, kind of just give it some time to percolate, et cetera. And about 95% of the time we come to the same place. But I was creating stress on him because I was like, make decisions like I make decisions. And he was creating stress for me because he wasn't making decisions fast enough and all that stuff.

[00:09:22] And once we understood that of each other, it's like I would render my decision or whatever my feeling or opinion or whatever the bit was. And I'd be like, Hey dude, whenever you're ready, we'll get back to it. So no stress for either of us. And so I use that as an example is like knowing yourself, but also knowing the folks around you. Totally. Totally helpful. Yeah. Well, that's what I work on with people.

[00:09:51] I help them understand how they're more than their job title. Yes. And now I've got a new book coming out about being seen, known and valued because essentially a lot of people in the workforce feel invisible. They're disillusioned and they feel like they don't know where they fit in the workforce. We use this language of, I need to find my fit. Is this the right fit? And fit is something we've worked on in careers for ages. We're actually really good at matching.

[00:10:20] We know how to fit X skill and Y box, but that's not what people want. They don't want to be what someone else is telling them to be. They want to be seen, known and valued for who they are. So that language I realized is actually tied to belonging. And so my new research is about how do you find career belonging in a workforce obsessed with fit? Because at the end of the day, people want to feel autonomy and freedom and a sense of flexibility and ownership in what they're doing.

[00:10:49] And right now they're all trying to become these boxes that have been set up and categorized by society. So not to go too far down the gender rabbit hole. Ah, let's go there. How skewed is this female to male? Based on what data are you thinking? Well, okay.

[00:11:15] So I'll start with a premise, maybe a thesis of, I think men pop out of the womb arrogant. Okay. And I think women pop out of the womb self-conscious. And I think society reinforces those things. Yeah. Through all kinds of mechanisms, sports. Sure. Everything.

[00:11:41] And guys, it's getting better generationally. I can see it in my own kids and I can see it in younger generations. It's getting better, but they just walk into a situation already confident-ish, but really arrogant. Not having all the data, not knowing any of the things they are. We're in this direction.

[00:12:08] And it's also changing for women that I see as leaders, et cetera. And so it's kind of coming to a place, but I can also see, like, men don't ask for directions. You know this. I know this. It's just like, ah, I know where the sun is. I just do this bit. Right? Right. Women don't do that, by and large. Again, broad sweeping generalizations, but women are more pragmatic. They're more realistic.

[00:12:38] They're more, again, smart. They'll ask for directions, whereas a dude will drive around an entire city until they find a place and say, all right, we're here. So I like the gender question, and I don't know if I can answer it based on the research and the people I've worked with, because my clients tend to be jacks of all trades. They tend to be multidimensional, multi-hyphenate, polymath. I call them hybrid professionals.

[00:13:08] And I've had men and women, although I will say I've had more female clients. But the trait that they have in common is the fact that they wear so many hats and they have so many abilities. I've got to apologize. I just got to apologize just for a second. Not that you're a therapist. I wouldn't put that on you. However, women actually look to get better. It's an observation.

[00:13:37] I have no empirical data to support anything that I'm saying and never will. But the thing is, is like I see women in the field that I run in, I see women that will actually seek out advice and help. And dudes, I just don't see that as much. I mean, people that are self-aware, yes, of course.

[00:14:01] But people that aren't, and there's way more men of those than women, I just don't see them seeking that out. I'd say it skews to different regions in the country, because if you come to Boulder, Colorado, we have a lot of the conscious companies and conscious capitalism, and they are dominated by men. No, that's fair. That's fair. That's actually fair. And again, it's getting, I think, perceptually at least, it's getting better with the generations because they are coming up that way.

[00:14:31] Yeah. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. No. So I was just saying, the people I work with wear a lot of hats, and so that's why they are the ones asking these questions of like, I'm trying to grow my career. I'm trying to be seen as this kind of leader or make this kind of network or start this thing, but I don't know how to present myself that way. I don't know how to say that or show that in a way where people get me.

[00:14:55] And so, yes, it's partially a problem of personal branding, but your brand is built on your identity. Right. And so they go hand in hand. That's what I'm looking at in the workforce is this idea of people who are struggling figuring out where they fit because they don't understand how to talk about how they want to be seen, known, and valued. So how do they communicate those things to a future employer?

[00:15:22] So this is a long game of what I'm working on because I'm a category creator. What I have sort of not quite invented, but it's like I'm putting pieces together that I see, but nobody else is seeing. Right. And so this emergence of professional identity, first of all, there's three types that exist that people need to just start talking about. So I would love this language to become more widespread. Right. We usually just talk about experts and generalists. You're either binary.

[00:15:48] But really there's three types, singularity, multiplicity, and hybridity. So a singularity means a person does one thing. They tend to be an expert. Multiplicity, someone can do many things. That's your jack of all trades, your generalists. But the hybrid is the one we've been missing. It's the both and. Or if you think about a Venn diagram, they're wearing multiple hats simultaneously. And that integration point in the Venn diagram is their secret sauce. Yes. Right.

[00:16:17] The best example I have, I mean, literally this came out in the Wall Street Journal this week. Moderna just hired their first chief technical officer who's also the head CHRO. Right. Like those two roles, which you would never think are connected, are now in one person. Right. That's what hybridity looks like in the workforce, yet we don't talk about it that way. So do you believe it's a blend? And let me go back to something you said.

[00:16:46] You're building a category. Yep. And for it to be a category, you can't say invented. Correct. I don't, well, I think it's emerging. I'm just noticing it. Okay. But you know what I'm saying, right? Yep. Because then other people won't use those words for just for no other fact than you're going to take credit for it. Totally. Or they would perceive that you would take credit for it. Yes.

[00:17:11] So the thing is, the language that becomes is the industry is changing in these ways. Mm-hmm. Thank you. And then, well, unsolicited devices. It's actually something I hate. So, of course, I give it to people. So, but anyhow, the thing is, is this idea, I love these three different, I always say personas. That's not the right word.

[00:17:39] But do you believe that the corporations or the employers of the future are a mix of those, like a portfolio of those? I think we need all three. Or do you believe it's all hybrid? So it's just like, we can't have a world full of experts. We wouldn't function. And we can't just have a world full of generalists. So we need all three types. And they play well together. You need the integrator if you know EOS. Right. One person is that weaver. That's what I'm talking about.

[00:18:07] But we're not calling it out that way. So we're still hiring in a very binary, single category model. Right. Which is ignoring a whole, it's becoming a massive portion of the workforce in this hybrid. Yeah. Well, what we see in the job market is they're hiring a lot of experts. And again, to your point, how many of them are hiring? They're probably already in the company. Yeah. But how many people are hiring generalists?

[00:18:34] And the only thing that's different that I would say with AI, because of the speed of AI, is you start to see people hiring for potentiality. Mm-hmm. Which is quite fascinating. Yeah. Because it has been based on these skill banks and things like test and all this type of stuff. And so now you have people testing for agility. Yeah. And ambiguity. Mm-hmm. And things like that. Like, okay, yeah, you need to have these skills.

[00:19:04] But your job's going to probably change in three months. Yeah. So we need you to be able to consume change. So if you can't consume change, if you're rigid, it's not going to work out. It doesn't matter how great your skills are for that first year, 18 months or whatever, because the job's going to change. So you need people that are highly adaptable. So that's fascinating to think about from the different – I mean, I'm saying personas. That's not the word you used.

[00:19:34] But the thinking of how do you hire for those people under those types of conditions. Yeah. Because it is actually – go ahead. The conditions you explained to me just now, to me, are more character traits or personality traits, how you do the work. Right. I'm talking about the individual and how they see themselves and how they operate in a role. Because if you hire someone who's hybrid and you put them in a specialist position, they're going to get bored and feel confined. 100%.

[00:20:03] And if you hire the expert and put them in a hybrid role, they'll feel too stretched and they won't know how to do it. Right. So to me, it's an awareness both on the hiring side and the employee side. Are you looking at a role that fits your identity type first and foremost? So does identity change? And I'll give you why I'm asking this question and then you can tear it all apart.

[00:20:26] So the personality folks, all the people that study personality and personality assessments, by and large, not all, but by and large, they believe your personality is your personality. It doesn't change. You are – you know, you learn more about yourself and all that stuff. But really, your personality is your personality. If you're outgoing, unless it's some type of trauma. Okay. I'm not talking about that.

[00:20:53] So does your professional identity – is it pliable or is it fixed? Such a great question. So identity is fluid and it evolves in your lifetime. I don't think it evolves rapidly. But if you look at yourself 10 years ago, you are a different person today than you were 10 years ago, identity-wise. Fair. Fair.

[00:21:18] And the other thing that makes this more complex, you can move through the three types, singularity, multiplicity, and hybridity because it's a diverge and converge. So back in the day, someone could just be a biologist. That was an expert. But then it expanded and maybe they were interested in biology and geology and got a chemistry degree. So now they're in multiplicity. But then they hybridized and they became a biogeochemical physicist, which are real roles.

[00:21:48] But now they're almost back to singularity because all three are rolled into one. Right. So at different points of time, you can be in the different spaces. I like that. And the things that make that change are those interests, passions. Like what's the drivers of those changes? I think the human. I think us. Our innate interests and talents and intrinsic motivation. Right.

[00:22:13] I mean, what I know from you, William, you've had a very multifaceted background. You haven't sat still. Why have you changed so many times? Yeah, I get bored easily. And there's a lot of life to live. And there's, you know, that's an innate personality too. I think some of it's that. I'm probably for a majority of the folks, I'm overly harsh.

[00:22:43] I try to be fair, but I'm like, I'll just, it's got to be on the spectrum. Like I tell my wife, I'm a sociopath. Just kind of keep it easy for her to kind of understand. But it's just one of those deals. If something, if somebody asks me my opinion, the first thing I do is ask them, how do you like your feedback? And usually they make the mistake of unvarnished. Just tell me everything you want to say. And I'm like, okay. Yeah.

[00:23:12] Because I'm not only going to tell you your baby's retarded. I'm going to tell them that they're ugly and retarded. And probably a midget. Like I'm that guy. Got it. But so, and again, that doesn't lend itself to a broad mass appeal. Because I'm not trying to make people happy. Right, right. I get zero out of making people happy.

[00:23:37] I get zero, I get more out of making sure I tell my truth than somebody like agreeing with me. I could care less if someone agrees. So, it is a bit sociopathic. You know, because I don't have empathy in the way that people traditionally think of empathy. Like I can see your shoes and I can think about what you've done, but I don't care.

[00:24:06] So, that's... I hope you're getting help for that. I'm on medicines. We're good. There's a reason. Well, actually, it's funny that you mentioned that. Because mental health is also tied in here to this. Somewhere, somehow, there's going to be a moment. So, losing your job, losing a loved one, going through a divorce are the three biggest times people go through an identity crisis. Wow.

[00:24:37] You know, I knew that, but I didn't know that. That is fantastic. And so, losing your job title literally makes people lose a sense of themselves. It is a detrimental, like, disconnection. And it's a false god. Yeah. And so, we've got a problem in society where we don't acknowledge this, first of all. We don't go, wow, someone's losing their job. They're going to go through an identity crisis because of this. Instead, we're like, get back on the bandwagon. Apply. Oh, yeah. You're the resume helper. Go talk to this career coach. Oh, shit.

[00:25:05] I grew up that way, especially in sports in Texas. It rubs some dirt on it. Yeah. I had coaches. I had coaches. I mean, it didn't happen to me personally, but I had coaches that would tell people that literally had broken their ankle. Or something like a real injury. Like, just run it off. Run it off. Just run it off. Like, you're going to run off a broken ankle. No, you won't. It doesn't get better. You actually have to go to the doctor. Yeah.

[00:25:35] And I've had coaches, you know, as a kid. Put some dirt on it. You'll be fine. Like, that's not great advice. Terrible advice. That's terrible advice. Yes. Yeah. I knew that as you said it, I'm like, makes sense. Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. Especially, I mean, the thing with divorce, you know, people get divorced for all kinds of reasons.

[00:26:03] So, it is what it is. But if you have to go through that, I've actually had a good friend tell me. I've been married for 31 years. So, first of all, my wife deserves hazard pay. But it's like, but I've had friends that have been through divorce. And he says, listen, divorce takes five years of your life. At least. So, it's just like, and I think now that I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking now about what you're talking about with identity.

[00:26:33] It's like having to reshape while you're going through all this other financial, real estate, all this other stuff. Yeah. You know, and if you got kids, you got to go through that monotony. And then, oh, by the way, redefining yourself. And it's a perfect time to basically go back and do the hard work of understanding who you actually are. Yeah.

[00:27:03] But most people don't know where to start. That's right. Because we don't have tools. We don't literally train and talk about this. Like the first, one of the first steps I do is a map of what are all the professional identities you have? Let's lay them all out on the paper and brainstorm. And I push people to put 50 different words down because they've never seen the experience of all the things they're doing in their work on paper before. Right. And that's revelation one. Revelation two is they don't even know what identities are.

[00:27:31] They start writing down, I'm a good collaborator and I like problem solving and building relationships. I'm like, those aren't identities. No. It'd be interesting. And again, you're going to be doing this work for a while. So it'd be interesting to see how others perceive them. That's one of the lessons I do with people. I make you interview and I say, you need to ask identity-based questions to get language of how others see you in your work besides your job title.

[00:27:58] And that is always one of the most revelatory exercises. They go, oh my God. Yeah. I get people at conferences say, you helped me with so-and-so on a podcast 20 years ago. I'm like, I have no idea what I said. Yeah. But it's, but it's, you know, I think the only thing I'd probably tinker with there and play with is I'm not sure this is the cynic, pessimist, dark side of me. I don't think people would tell me the truth.

[00:28:29] So even if I asked, which I don't, but even if I asked, I'm not sure they would tell me the truth, but a third party, like there was a company called Checked that basically did reference checking. Okay. And assessments at the same time. Yeah. So you put in the email addresses of your references and you took an assessment, personal assessment.

[00:28:53] And then the people that you got to do your references, they also did that assessment, but all the questions were jumbled. Everything was jumbled. You couldn't game it. Yeah. So if you said, yeah, I'm always on time. And they're like, yeah, never showed up on time. Like you could kind of then see how far off or how close. Yeah. But I think like if I went out and asked 10 people, 10 colleagues to then tell me, et cetera, I would trust the data.

[00:29:24] Interesting. Then that's me. I think identity is also a more subjective measurement. I might be on an outlier. So you're already way on the outlier. We knew that. Fair. Fair. Fair statement. I earned that. That is true. All right. Where I notice people get hung up is they use the same identity language across the board. Got it. So yeah, a quantitative assessment through check that's double blind or whatever you're trying to do. Right. Right.

[00:29:53] Is too limiting on the language. And that's why I find a lot of these other personality assessments and Myers-Briggs and whatnot. Right. You're one of 16 types or 25 words or whatever. Identity is limitless, infinite. In fact, I encourage people to make their own language. Right. So now you're defining, you're like inventing words that are new combinations that hadn't been used before.

[00:30:15] So is it, or could it be, could it be an obituary? Say more. Meaning in the sense that you write your own obituary. Yeah. And then I'm going to get 10 of your friends to write your obituary. Okay. What do they say? It's interesting because it's all past tense, right? It's right.

[00:30:41] And I think they want to look at your legacy and your impact. Right. And those could be interesting. Like that could be an element of how you do the interview, but it wouldn't be enough. It would be enough to get to the real things of today. Yeah. Like, so I had a client last week who did this and he said, one of the questions I say is what character alive or fictional do you remind this person of? And so this client got the answer that he was Mr. Rogers on the team.

[00:31:11] Totally shocked him. Yeah. Like, where did that come from? First of all, that's great. I mean, that is fantastic. Yeah. Totally likable. Gives great advice. Exactly. Calm. Like so many cool things in that person. Like, oh my God, I wish. I didn't know how he was going to receive that. I was like, is this super bad? And he took it the way you just said. He was like, I didn't know people see me as kind of the friendly giant because he's a big guy.

[00:31:39] And then I'm really there to help people even after work and outside of work. And so that reflection was so reaffirming for him. And then it's helping us start looking at that language of what does that mean? Who he really is? How do we, because he's a data analyst. He's like, I don't want to be seen as a data analyst anymore. Right. Right. Right. That's the job. That's the thing. That's a skill. That's not who I am. Exactly. So how do you, it seems like you're peeling back layers of just shit.

[00:32:10] Yeah. Of society. Totally. All this stuff. Programming. Old programming. Words. Yep. A lot of words. Yep. And getting down to the. Yep. The you, you part. Yeah. So. So it requires this is. So in my next book, I talk about how do we see, how do we know, how do we value? We've never been taught how to do this for ourselves or for each other. Sure. But when I'm doing work with people and I teach them to start with stories, the stories of yourself.

[00:32:39] And I use very specific memories. I call them your FBOs, your first, best, and only moments in your work. Because when you are the first, the best are only at something. You are doing something where you're in your best and brightest ability. You're usually in a flow state and you're usually unconsciously weaving together whatever special things are your, your special size. Right. And we need to bring that to your attention. And so when someone's telling me a story of a time they created this PowerPoint and everyone

[00:33:06] in the room was just like starstruck and this amazing conversation happens, I say, freeze. How did you make that PowerPoint? What were you doing? Why did you assemble it that way? Why did you ask these questions? And they go, oh, well, I just kind of do it that way. I'm like, no, you ask that question. In a special way, other people don't do that. That's right. And then I start to hear the identity language come forward. Like, are you a special kind of mythologist of imagery? And they go, huh.

[00:33:32] And we capture these unique words until we get a bank of them and we see a new picture of this person. Right. And then as you're doing this, they see that of themselves. Yeah. It's very Buddhist. Thank you. I'll take that. Because the Buddhists believe that you, first of all, you internalize. And then once you've internalized, then you externalize.

[00:33:59] So first of all, you have to see it, believe it, and trust it. And then turn around and get other people to believe it, see it, and trust it. Exactly. Yeah, there's a confidence building factor. Right. But again, once you've torn, you're, I say tearing people down. That's not the right word. But you're peeling away all that bullshit to get down to the good stuff.

[00:34:24] And then I'm fascinated to see if people are freaked out at that. Like, what's the freak out factor? Like, huh, what do you mean I'm a nice guy? Fuck it. So, like, you know, like that, that's fascinating in and of itself once you get to that thing. But then you build up. There's usually a moment of aha. There usually becomes a very clear moment. I can never predict when it'll happen, but I know it does. Yeah.

[00:34:51] And the other person gets a word, and I make them say it out loud because you have to feel it. You have to say your own words. It's yours. It's not mine. And they say it, and they go, that's me. Like, it just clicks. Something inside of them is like, oh, my God. For some people, it's a little slower. They have to try it on and, like, test it with new people. Because they're like, is it? Do you see me? Yeah. And our brains are so powerful. It's like judging the whole time. Oh, yeah. But nine times out of 10, people have this, like, full body reaction.

[00:35:21] They go, oh, my gosh. You just, that's who I've been my whole life. I didn't know how to say that. For people that have weight, it's, and they lose some weight, it's wearing smaller clothing. Is really traumatic. Not traumatic. That's the wrong word. But it's, they're not used to it, and they're not used to other people seeing them in a smaller size. Yeah. And so they don't deal with the awkwardness of, like, oh, this is too short. It's too tight. It's this, this, that, and the other. It's like, it's none of those things.

[00:35:51] You know, people are too self-involved to actually care, A. B, body dysmorphia, it turns out it's a real thing. So, like, how you see yourself is not how people, majority of people see you. Yeah. So, I could talk to you all day, but, you know, like, you've got shit to do. Supposedly. Supposedly. You're planning your weekend. Sarah Beth, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[00:36:21] And the last thing is, you've got another book, Jack. Yeah. What's your, what's your website? MoreThanMyTitle.com. And I've got a new More Than My Title experience releasing this summer. MoreThanMyTitle.com. Genius. Thank you so much for coming on the show. All right. Huge pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.