Leading Without the Mask

[00:00:05] Welcome to The Courageous Choice, a podcast about what it really takes to lead at the edge of change. Because here's the truth, strategy isn't enough anymore. The world of work is moving faster than ever, and the leaders who stand out aren't the ones with all the answers. They're the ones willing to make bold decisions in moments of uncertainty. This podcast is about those moments, about those leaders, and because leadership today isn't about certainty, it's about courage. The courage to see differently, act decisively, and step forward anyway.

[00:00:33] Welcome to this episode of The Courageous Choice. Today, I'm joined by Tacey Rehm. Tacey has built a career on one core belief, leadership change starts on the inside. She's the founder of Voss Consulting, and she spent 25 years as an executive coach, a keynote speaker, leadership consultant, helping executives own their growth and build teams where people and performance both thrive. Her perspectives comes from the ground up. She spent 15 years as an organizational development consultant inside a Fortune 50 company.

[00:01:03] I was there with her, so we have some shared experience. Followed by client work spanning industries as different as biotech to hospitality. She's been doing this for 11 years, and that range shows up in how she works, equal parts, practical framework, and personal storytelling. She always brings a sense of humor, and it's delivered from everyone, from C-suite executives to emerging leaders and cross-functional teams. The thrill in every room that Tacey's in is great leadership begins within, and I'm excited to explore that with you today.

[00:01:32] Thanks so much for being here, Tacey. Yay! Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm grateful to be here. Thank you. Me too. So, you know, Tacey, one of the things that, you know, this is the courageous choice, so we're going to talk about your journey. As you look back on your career, what was the moment that really required that most amount of courage and why? It is the example.

[00:01:56] So 11 years ago, I decided to leave my corporate job where they put money in my account every two weeks, and I loved what I did. I'd been there 15 years, great humans, great people, loved the work, but I was always wanting to go out and work with other companies. And I'd done a little consulting on the side while I was working there.

[00:02:19] So I knew it's what I wanted to do, but 11 years ago is when we had decided to, or we're in the middle of an adoption of our fourth kid. And I knew I wanted my time to be myself, like for myself and whether I was going to work a lot, I wanted it to be on my time. And that was my biggest thing.

[00:02:37] So I decided to take this risk, which I don't think I would have done if I didn't have him as that thing pushing me because, yeah, I literally drove him to school this morning and told him I was going to be on this podcast. And he was like, you're going to talk about me. And I said, probably because you were the one who pushed me to take the risk that I probably wouldn't have taken because I was comfortable. I liked what I was doing. I was fulfilled, but I knew I wanted to do something more.

[00:03:06] And so because he needed me, it forced me out to do the thing. And that was probably the biggest courageous choice I made. And one that I look back and feel like I could have made that five years earlier and would have been thrilled. And not one second have I regretted making that decision.

[00:03:28] So thinking about courageous things that we do, it was one of those that I thought if I walk off this plank and I do this, I might go on food stamps. But I didn't. And it ended up being my favorite part of my career, probably my favorite 11 years of my career so far. Talk about courageous choices. I am one that has lived out feeling very nervous about something, very nervous about it, did it. And I'm so grateful I did. That's really cool. Yeah.

[00:03:58] Yeah. It's interesting, right? Like the catalyst that kind of you just go like, I'm going to do it anyway. Right. And whether it's personal or professional, something I always tell myself is like, I can always make another decision if I need to. Right. But the, how did you like, so you said you had done some consulting previously, but part of the process as you make that jump is like getting clear about what you want to do. Right. Like your offerings and those kinds of things. Did you just wing it or did you know, how did you figure that out?

[00:04:28] Both. I winged it and I was set. So I know I went out thinking, I want to do what I did within this organization for 15 years. I want to do it all. I wanted to do leadership development. I wanted to partner with their OD groups. I wanted to do culture work, change, coaching, all the things that I'd been doing off and on for 15 years. And when I left and went out on my own, I remember people giving me feedback of pull it together, girl.

[00:04:58] You can't say I want to do everything with the, on the human side of business for everybody. Right. And so it was such a lesson to me because I'm like, I can do it all. And nobody cared. They were like, that's great that you think you can do it all. I had to really pull together and make it more clear and targeted what I wanted to do. It's what I talked to people interested in consulting right now, jumping out.

[00:05:21] There was that discipline of making sure that I was focused completely on what I needed to do and what I wanted to do. And then as these 11 years have grown or as these 11 years have happened, I've been able to broaden my scope. I am now doing all the things that I wanted to be able to do. But when I first started out, I absolutely had to target that and be disciplined with one focus. That's awesome. I was given the same advice.

[00:05:50] Like people want to help you, but they need to know how. Right. And when you're like, oh, I do everything HR or every, like you said, anything on the people and organization and leadership side of business. And they're like, what? I don't know what you're talking about. So getting specific is certainly a good idea. And as I think you and I both talked to so many people about, I call it the path to preferment. So you've had a really successful career, both in-house and on your own.

[00:06:13] And it's interesting because I can tell you when I was sitting in my big corner office in that company that we worked with together, it was like my first director, senior director job. And I remember feeling maybe successful, but also disconnected from it. And as I started my own journey learning that like success and courage aren't always the same thing. In fact, for me, there was like fear that I didn't even know.

[00:06:40] It was like certainly way under the surface, but playing a pretty significant role. So when you think about success, how has your definition of success changed over time? I think success, gosh, when I was in corporate, I'll take success as a consultant. I originally was looking at success as a consultant, which I still think is important. What types of clients am I getting? Are they calling me back? Is the work making a difference? Am I making that financial number that I need to make?

[00:07:09] All things that are very, they're still important things. I look at metrics that I care about. That was success. I think as I've grown in these 11 years, for me, what I see success as has been me having the courage to be me. I went out originally and got some feedback a couple times. And those people will remain nameless.

[00:07:34] But I got some feedback of, hey, pull back on who you are. Be more like to fit this corporate. Interesting. Yeah. And I thought to myself, wow, is that what it is to be successful here? Is to have really speak kind of HR, come in with a very kind of formal, sophisticated way.

[00:07:57] And I just knew the success I'd had over the last some 18 years in corporate wasn't from me not being me. It was from me being my authentic self. And so I had to just, yes, you want to hear, hey, was this maybe a more time I should have done something different? I always want to be open to feedback. But the more I would let that stuff hit me, the more I was trying to be someone I wasn't. So the courage for me was quite literally, I'm not for everybody.

[00:08:27] I'm not going to be the greatest coach for everybody. I won't be the best partner for everybody. There's going to be things that are going to be challenging for people or what we won't be the right fit. But if I'm me, authentically me, I'm going to be fine and I will be the best version. And so I think when I kind of got that feeling, then I was like, then I know how to be me. And you'll always get the realist version. And it helped me even lean more into, I don't want to be the people pleaser. I don't want to shape shift for everybody.

[00:08:57] I want to quite literally be me. And then I think in turn that helps my clients. I'm as real as I can be. I get to have harder conversations. So that was courage for me. That is so well said, because I think that we like people do it in relationships, right? Like personal relationships. They try to be what their partner wants them to be, right? Or in this case, I'm afraid. So I want to get business.

[00:09:24] So I'm trying to morph myself to meet what I think everybody needs. But we're not trying to, the reality is, or the learning is that we aren't trying to be for everybody, right? You want the people who really appreciate you, your authentic self. And like the way I say it in my personal relationship, but also at work is like, when there's, when I'm being my authentic self, there's no wasted energy on the mask or the friction or the like internal tension or whatever.

[00:09:53] And I know your clients that they love you. You have a self-deprecating style sometimes when you're on stage and people really love it because it makes it like approachable. But you're also like super knowledgeable. And I mean, like, you know what you're talking about. So it's not like making up for something you don't have. It's just, I think it reaches people. And so that's powerful. And I think it's true. Like you think about companies right now that are evolving and AI and all these things.

[00:10:20] And then you think about individuals, whether you're an employee or you're on your own. Knowing if you're a company, knowing your mission and vision and your values and what differentiates you in the market. It's the same for us as consultants in the market. Lots of people could say the same words, OD, L&D, coaching, speaker, consultant, whatever, offsite. Like whatever words you want to use. What's different? Like what do I get with Tacey? And that's why your people call you back.

[00:10:47] It's not because of the, I don't know, pretty gamma deck or whatever, right? Like it's a crowd output or something. Right. I do think that there's, it does help without just relationship building. And once you've, now that I've consulted with folks at all different levels from C-suite to different, we're all just trying to figure it out. Nobody's got it figured out. And so your reference to that mask, we're all in the midst of it.

[00:11:11] So if I can help people come down out of, if I'm showing I don't have the mask on and I'm going to be authentically me. And there might be a little bit of self-deprecation because I'm human. It allows other people, even in the C-suite to then go, oh, I don't have to have that on either in front of my team. And let's just work this out human to human. I think we all get down to this different level of like, none of us have it all figured out. Right.

[00:11:37] And in the world, I feel like right now, this happened in COVID where we had to take that mask off a little bit. Because you were seeing our kids in the background, the dogs, all the things. But I think even now, so many people are confused as to where we're going. And so as leaders, the more we can just show up with, I'm learning. I don't have it all figured out. I'm nervous too. Or I'm overwhelmed.

[00:12:04] Or if we can just get there together, I just think we're better off. I think you're right. I know you help often as leaders, we feel like we should have all the answers and we should have things figured out. And now it's just the reality is we don't. We might have a plan, but we know it's going to change. Or we might want to, it might be like, hey, let's co-create this. Or it's a collective experiment.

[00:12:29] But that's uncomfortable, I think, for many of us as leaders who feel like leading is we're supposed to set the charge for the mountain or whatever and know exactly what that looks like. How do you help leaders? I know you do both individual and teams. Like, how are you navigating that? I think it's exactly that. I think it's, I like to say I'm in the human side of business. So I work with companies from startups to banks that have been around here forever.

[00:12:57] In every situation, the more a leader can be transparent, the more a leader can connect with their people and say, yes, you've got to lead the charge. Yes, you have to set the vision. Yes, you can't be like, I don't know what I'm doing. Follow me. Clearly. But there is a sense of the more human they can be, the better connected they are with their people, the people are going to follow them. And so when I help them show up, here's a way to co-create.

[00:13:25] The world that we're in right now, we need people to co-create. It cannot be the leaders figuring the whole thing out. I say all the time to people, leaders used to have all the answers. I think a decade ago, that was like impossible. There's no way you can know everything. And now with AI, that's silly.

[00:13:41] So now we've got to really utilize our people, peers, directs, cross-functional folks, different levels, and really have that human connection because we have to co-create and we have to learn from one another. And it can't be I'm the leader. I've got it all together. Follow me. I'm watching leaders who try to still keep that mask on and they are losing their people because they don't have it all figured out.

[00:14:09] And their people smell it. It's so clear that they're like their feet under the water, like the duck. They're freaking out. People see it, say it. Your people kind of call it out or you get exposed in a way that's much worse than just saying, I don't have it all together. Yeah, you start to lose respect, right? Or confidence. And that's hard to recover. Yeah. That's interesting. What are you seeing? I feel like actually there was data that came out from Gallup.

[00:14:39] So the trust and satisfaction, employee satisfaction has been low for a really long time. Now managers are really low too. And if our manager satisfaction is really low, I don't know how inspiring they're going to be for their teams. Right. And so how are you seeing companies like we, I just think about like the traditional leadership development. How is that changing today to meet leaders where they are to support what they need now?

[00:15:09] Yeah. And I think there's probably 20 answers to that. In my world, what I'm seeing is we've done a really good job or we've been going towards leadership development individually. And I think there's still absolutely a need for that. I think we need individually. My whole mantra is it starts with you. We look in the mirror. How am I showing up? Totally think leadership development individually is huge.

[00:15:35] Where I'm seeing it's more important right now is this cross-functional team dynamics to help, whether it's matrixed or not. It's just that we all quite literally need each other more than we ever have. And the people who are upstream or downstream or sideways are, I'm doing so much more of like team dynamics where it's maybe within your department.

[00:16:02] Maybe it's within that cross-functional where we've got to help leaders lead their teams so that there isn't infighting underneath. So if you go back to Lencioni's model of first team and second team, I don't know how many times I've pulled that out lately. It is like the top topic because you've got a leadership team who's so siloed, who's focused only because we're like, be a good leader, be a good leader. And you're focused on your directs. Yay.

[00:16:31] But then we got to remember, oh, man, I've got my peers. If you're a leader or a manager, you've got your peer level. And we have such funky relationships in those peer levels without alignment. And so then the folks right underneath them are fighting it out without any decision-making power. So the conversations we're not willing to have at the peer level are now finding their way here and our people are frustrated.

[00:16:58] So where I think we're putting our managers in a tough situation is we're not helping them navigate those cross-functional relationships. We're saying focus on your humans, focus on your team. But, man, if this isn't aligned, and there's some funky people in the workforce, right? So, like, you've got to work with the crazy people. And so we've got to help figure out how do you deal with someone who's now coming from a place of, like, wanting to keep stuff or they're defensive.

[00:17:27] And that's where I think I'm doing more of that, like, team. I'm calling it team alignment. We could say group therapy or we could say team alignment. We could say group therapy or having the conversations that, like, need to be had so our people aren't team me and team you fighting it out within the organization. Yeah, I think it's a rational – yes, there's some weird people. But generally, it's like a rational response, right?

[00:17:53] Like, when I was a leader, like, I would come in – I was always brought in to transform something, right? So it's much easier to do an HR transformation as an HR leader than to do a cultural transformation across the whole organization, right? And so if I look functionally and wear that hat, like, I just can get more stuff done quickly because there's less friction, right? And so some of it's rational that we're, like, they're looking at their function.

[00:18:20] But the tension that I think is happening, like, at an exponential – this has always been true, but it's at an exponential level right now because the way work is changing is cross-functional. Like, AI is not a – it's not a technology thing. Like, it is a technology thing, but it doesn't live just in technology, right? And it affects all these other things. So the work is now becoming cross-functional, but their purview or areas of responsibility, maybe even how they're rewarded, those things stay with what they're responsible for.

[00:18:50] And those can be at odds. And then there's – so it's a system. I feel like the system – and so what you're doing in the team alignment stuff, I think, is there's probably multiple levels. Like, one, getting people to think like enterprise-level leaders, right? So wear that broader hat, the team hat, first team hat. And then we – okay, so how can we start to create new mechanisms when those clashes – or I don't know what words you would use.

[00:19:20] How do you describe it? But it's new muscles that are going to just be used way more frequently. Totally agree. And I got to put up for the managers. They are given some of the most difficult things to do when – and I'm not slamming ELT. Like, executive-level teams, amazing, see such great stuff. If it's not aligned here – 100%.

[00:19:45] First team, if it is not aligned here, now we're putting our next-level folks to figure it out. And we've not given clarity on ownership, decision-making, expectations. And so now we're just all trying to be like, I'm being measured for this, so I'm going to really do this. I'm being measured for this.

[00:20:03] And so the lack of cohesion on getting that done together, I think it puts such a big burden on mid-level managers to achieve what I'm supposed to do for myself. But my higher-ups, they're not saying the same thing. And so that's the joy as a consultant is I get to go in and say, typically it's, hey, fix my mid-level managers. And I'm like, I'd love to. Bring in the magic wand.

[00:20:30] But I will go in and ask the ELT, so what have you done or not done to allow this to get this way or to allow us to be in this place? And they're like, no, no, no. It's not us. It's them. Fix them. And then if I ask that kind of, yeah, but let's look in the mirror. What have you done? It starts with you. So then that's the space where I could say first team starts right up there. Then we've got to create that with our next level and our next level.

[00:20:56] I think if Gallup is saying there's extra pressure for managers, I would believe it in my soul because they are asked to get results. Don't piss anybody off. Make sure your team's really satisfied, but you don't have full alignment and clarity above you at all times. And then you don't have a mechanism, a cadence of communication, a way of communicating to your peer level. And so that's the place that I get to go in and say, hey, let's make some agreements.

[00:21:25] How about agree to say the thing really soon after it happened? We keep short accounts. Let's say, let's talk to each other directly as opposed to our posse over here that's going to say we're doing good. Like there have to just be agreements and there aren't mechanisms right now that pay attention to that human side of business. Right. And so you get outliers that either are disruptive or shut down.

[00:21:53] Right. And that's not engaging and not going to bring out the best. And it allows that dysfunction to fester and be maintained at a system level. I think the power of what we do when we bring in, you bring that external lens or you is that is a mirror. Right. And the ability to ask the next question. I know you like believe that, but what happens when you see this and you just get to the root of things so that we can actually help help make it better? Because nobody there's no bad intention. It's just you're in it. Right.

[00:22:22] I rarely see bad intention. I really go along the mantra. I believe 99 percent of humans wake up trying to do the right thing. Every level, ELT all the way down to the first new employee at the lowest level of the org chart. I think people wake up wanting to do a good job. And so if we can bring even that lens of nobody's trying to make my life miserable. There are some things that are making my life miserable, but it's not an intentional thing. So how do we work around it?

[00:22:50] If we even bring that to work, I think it can revolutionize how we see things. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And we used to talk as leaders about clearing the path. Right. And I think that is maybe still true, but what we need leaders to recognize is the paths are kind of like all junked up. There's a bunch of trees in the path that you just, we just ignoring or have gotten used to, or haven't recognized yet because of the cross-functional nature of work. And so really looking at that differently. Yeah.

[00:23:19] When we think about leadership development, I know you and I both benefited in our careers from leadership development programs and then transition to developing other leaders. Many people stay in roles that are no longer serving them or helping them grow because they're afraid of what's next. Yeah. And we, as leaders, we don't want to necessarily, we don't want our people to become part of the 38% that leave organizations and we want to retain people.

[00:23:44] But how, what do you advise leaders to look for when it's time to either stay or to preserve versus when it's time to make that courageous career move? We've all seen that. Do I stay and try to figure it out here or do I, is it the time? In my work as an executive coach, I see this often. I will also see it if I do leadership development work or team sessions, and maybe someone will come up to me afterwards and we'll talk about it.

[00:24:12] But I see this really in my coaching where I've got to help them pause, reflect, and see what's working for me, what's not working for me. The big thing that I try to help people think about is they have more agency than they think they do. And I just hate when people feel stuck. Yes. We're not stuck. I literally had a coaching client yesterday.

[00:24:38] It's exact conversation we were having of you aren't stuck. Now, my big thing that I like to make sure that we're doing is we take our little mirror and we look in there and say, have I done every single thing I can on my side of the fence to make this a really great place for myself, for others? Have I asked good questions? Have I approached people humbly? Have I been curious about other people? Have I suspended judgment? Have I paused before I reacted?

[00:25:08] Have I done the things I need to do that's my work? Right. Because if you don't do that, we're taking that to the next job. A hundred percent. So that to me, the litmus is if I'm coaching someone and usually I get to coach people, but it's the individual, but I really like to coach people that I've already worked in their organization because it's typically a systems issue. It's not just that one person. So it's like, there's a lot of different dynamics. They're like the identified patient of let's get them development, but there's so many other things going on.

[00:25:37] So as I'm coaching them, my whole goal is to say, how can they be better showing up no matter what company they are in? If they've gotten to the place, and I have worked through this with people before, they've gotten to the place where we have worked through strategies. They have done the things and then it's just nothing's changing. Other people aren't responding well to what they're saying. There's you're just seeing this is just getting more depressing.

[00:26:05] And all of a sudden, if they were to really look, they're so deeply unhappy and feel stuck. And that's when I kind of go into what's keeping you here. And it's usually just fear. And so that I felt fear before I left my corporate job. We all feel fear and we have so much more agency. We have so many more contacts that we can connect with. We have so many more people we could reach out to and say, what are other jobs that are out there?

[00:26:34] And I just encourage people. Life is so short. Life is so precious. If you feel stuck, let's figure that out. So I guess my thing is like, do everything you can on your side. And then if you've done that and you're still hitting up against the wall, figure out, create a plan. But there's so much good work for us to do. Like we're all gifted in different things. I would hate for someone to not feel like just be stuck in a situation for years on end.

[00:27:04] It's just not worth it. Life is too short. Yeah. I love the way you frame that. I think that it's because it's not always, first of all, it could be like a moment in time, or it could be something that you could adjust or you could change, or you could put your hat out to do something. Like there's lots of potential things inside your current situation that could shift. So I like that. It's not, Hey, just cut bait because you're upset. Right? Like we see both sides of that.

[00:27:28] But the flip side is like, there are times when it's time to make a change and fear shouldn't keep you from doing what's aligned. Yeah. That's right. As you think about just the lens of the workforce right now, whether you're thinking you could answer this either really at any level, whether it's an executive level or mid-level or just any employee as far as the workforce, what does courage look like across the workforce today?

[00:27:54] So I, it's probably going to be not counterintuitive. I think you, you see this, but I kind of see a couple things that are courageous. One is like, we've already mentioned, assuming positive intent is courageous. I just see that as like, we are really struggling to do that. And I think if we're able to take a beat, just take a minute and assume positive intent, they're not doing this, like doesn't get that reaction.

[00:28:24] I think it's courageous because what I think is strong sometimes is powering up and defending myself, my people. It's not the best look. And so courage could be, let me just hold on. I'm imagining they have other pressures too. So that, that piece. And then along with that, I would say asking great questions and listening with curiosity because where I hear so many issues, it's like, we've already assigned.

[00:28:54] I've made the assumption. I know why you're doing this. You're trying to, you know, sabotage my team or whatever it is. We're already going down that story. I'm good at it too. I can make up stories. I put a story arc. I put music. I have it directed by a famous person. I'm good at stories. And so if we could stop this by assuming positive intent, but then asking questions like, hey, this is what I'm feeling. Is my story correct? Tell me where I'm wrong.

[00:29:21] What am I missing to me when I tell people to do that? And we talk through that, whether it's leadership sessions or coaching, they're like, no, wait, no, I have to ask that. It's so humbling. And it's courageous. What am I missing? What am I not seeing? What do you wish I understood? It gives me chills thinking about it because I don't love to be in that spot. I love to tell others to do it. I don't love the feeling of it.

[00:29:49] And I've even done that recently with my teenager of just asking him like, babe, what am I missing? What do you wish I got that I'm not? Those are very humbling, powerful, courageous. That's a courageous stance. It's super courageous. And it really invites people to be honest, which is what we all need. That's amazing. And it gets us in saying the thing.

[00:30:16] Because where I'm noticing, because I'd mentioned I'm doing so many team things, I will talk to people individually. And I'm like, so what's going on? And they're like, oh, so-and-so is like this. And then we're not doing this. And they actually all are pretty smart knowing what's happening. But no one's saying it. And so we're playing the little niceties with a couple little subtle digs, but we're never fully doing it. So I think when you're able to assume positive intent and ask good questions, you're going to get into saying the thing.

[00:30:45] And so, but it's not coming in, hey, it's like, I'm noticing we're struggling here or I'm feeling off. Talk to me. And so it's allowing us, which I think is courageous, to say the thing to the person. But it's not saying it in a statement. It's saying, I'm seeing something. Help me understand. You will win. So powerful. Yeah. So powerful.

[00:31:08] And that's what, that's, that unaddressed ick is the drag in organizations, in the systems. So if you get them to address those as they come up, they're not building that drag or they're eliminating that drag. And that's like extremely impactful. Yes. Okay. Final question. So if you could leave our listeners with one courageous choice that they should make this year, whether career or their life, what would it be?

[00:31:38] I think the biggest thing would be know that you have agency. Don't let other people, other situations dictate your life. Let's not just abdicate all of our things to whether there's a position open in my company, whether this person likes me or doesn't like me. I've got, I'm at 50 years old.

[00:32:05] I got my first tattoo and it was of an arrow. And for me, it was just this true, it was really for my kids because I want them to get this, but it was for me too. I was brought up in a way that like, don't trust your inner self, all jacked up things like just that, that you're probably not going to know. So I've recovered and I know that I kind of see stuff pretty, pretty well. And if I take a moment enough to reflect and think, what do I want?

[00:32:35] Get off the treadmill for a second. What do I want? Is this serving me anymore? Is this job serving me? Is this relationship serving me? If I just take a second, my arrow is pretty darn accurate. Now, if I make a wrong choice, which I have, I get to then shift or you turn, or I get to correct.

[00:32:58] I'm not saying I always make my arrows not perfect, but I just feel like I'm dealing with a lot of amazing humans who feel stuck. And I would just say, courage is just almost going into the quiet space. I don't like to do that often. Some people are really good at that. But going into the quiet space and how am I feeling? Am I thriving? Am I liking this? Is this working? Is this helping me in other areas of my life?

[00:33:26] If not, we have agency. And there's mentors and coaches and friends and peers that can help you think through it. I love that. I love that. And the agency and then we do something with it, right? It doesn't. And it starts with them, right? It's just so powerful. And I think that's very inspirational. And it definitely is courage. And it's true. There's unlimited potential.

[00:33:55] So staying stuck or living by fear is if I could eradicate fear, that would be like my secret wish too. Thank you so much, Tacey. You're incredible. I know that we will see you again here. I'm so grateful that we're friends and to be professional peers as well. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Courageous Choice, everyone. And we'll see you soon. Thank you for listening to The Courageous Choice.

[00:34:21] If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five-star review to help get the word out about the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on any of our future conversations. If you'd like to know more about Gig Talent, please visit gigtalentagency.com or email us at podcast at gigtalentagency.com. See you in the next episode.