It’s Not a Pricing Problem, It’s a Positioning Problem

[00:00:00] Welcome to the EVOLVE Talent & HR Show. We are building the rooms where HR and talent leaders learn, connect, and evolve. I'm Anna Morgan, and this is the space where People First Leaders come for courageous conversations. Whether you're leading from the C-suite, emerging as a new voice, building community, or driving change within your organization, this show is for you. Every episode brings voices that are driving change in the HR and talent community.

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[00:00:56] your connection to the entire EVOLVE ecosystem. New episodes come out weekly. Now it's your turn to EVOLVE. Welcome. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the EVOLVE Talent and HR Show. My guest is Kim Henderson, and she is the VP of Training at Cobalt Compass. I've known her for many years now. She has been showing

[00:01:22] up on the stages I've hosted since the Ask a Recruiter audio days, and she is here to tell us why the race to the bottom on price is never actually about price. So welcome to the show, Kim. So happy to have you, and what a great conversation to have in service of us reconnecting as well. So. And it is wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me in. It's a pleasure to

[00:01:49] reconnect. We've known each other for probably about three years now. Yeah. And if you'll allow me, may I, because it's going to, I think, tie into what we're talking about today in terms of like positioning and pricing. Can I tell everyone like how we met and a little bit of a journey and what you taught me? Because I think it'll fit really well. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. The floor is yours. Okay. I'll give the condensed version. So, you know, let's face it, right? Years ago,

[00:02:18] I think many of us were using LinkedIn as like, okay, I need to go use it if I'm an agency recruiter or account manager to find names and call. And that's how I was using it, right? But as you and I both know, LinkedIn started to evolve and it started to be a huge attraction tool, right? You know, people getting to know you and your company and what you do and showing that credibility before you even make the first call. And so I didn't have any of that, right? And quite honestly,

[00:02:45] I was like really reticent to do it. And I was kind of like, oh geez, I can't believe I have to do this sign. And I met with you and you really helped me not only understand the why behind needing to do this, but also helping me learn that this is going to help me in my business by doing this from an attraction standpoint. And I thought, oh my God, I don't think this is going to work.

[00:03:11] And so Anna, you set me up, you've got me rolling. And of course, LinkedIn evolves and we all have to evolve with it. But I will say guys, anyone out there listening three years ago, I was skeptical. I was a naysayer about all this, you know, online attraction. It's mandatory today and it did pay dividends. It really helped me out being consistent, which is what you told me as well. So I think

[00:03:38] this is a great, almost springboard, our history together. And I tell people the story all the time, Anna, how I was, you know, not on board and you got me on board and got me to see the benefits and got me to stick to it. So kudos to you. You helped me out a lot. Yeah. And, you know, as we mentioned before we hit record and it always takes me back to that Steve Jobs quote, like you can't necessarily connect those dots and you have to trust your intuition,

[00:04:08] destiny, karma, like your intuition on conversations publicly and in the DMs and all throughout LinkedIn, how those are going to connect. And that just makes my heart sing to know that you've stuck with it. You've gotten great results. And, you know, I wish there was a silver bullet to provide people for that process, but there's not because the world of work, the way we buy what's important to us,

[00:04:38] those things continue to evolve just like the LinkedIn algorithm. So I'm excited to see how that visibility and consistency ties in to the pricing conversation because many of our listeners are talent leaders, you know, CHROs, and they are making decisions on who are going to be their training partners, who are going to be their third party recruiters, and how do they make those

[00:05:04] decisions? And you're saying there have been times when you had a deal that you thought came down to price when it shouldn't have. And why don't we start there? Like, take me to that deal where, you know, you thought it was about price and you're leading with that and maybe shouldn't have. And where were you sitting? What did that conversation look like? Those are great questions. And I can tell you, there's been more of those conversations throughout

[00:05:27] my career than I'd like to admit. I think what I've learned, and again, it's all like evolution. You're every day, you kind of, you know, whatever business you're in, you make some mistakes and then you learn from it and move on. But what I learned is, yeah, right? We hope we learn. What I learned after all this was, in a lot of cases, I was chasing the wrong type of client to begin with, right? You know, Anna, I mean, think about it. Sometimes we've all been there. It's

[00:05:57] whoever will pick up our phone call if we're on the agency side. Oh, hey, I want to work with them. And wait, great. Usually when they call you, then it's a really squirrely type of opportunity. Yes, yes. You hit the nail on the head, Anna, when they call you for a request, beware. It's never a good thing. It's never going to work out well. But I think that was the first part that I learned that, you know, I started trying to chase anybody and everybody who was a user of staffing

[00:06:25] services and specifically, I was IT and finance. And what I learned is you really do, at least on the agency side and to a degree on the talent acquisition side, create an ideal profile, right? What are the type of clients that fit you geographically, skill set, process, pricing, all of this stuff. So I think it starts there to know where you excel. And don't kid yourself,

[00:06:50] I was kidding myself and, you know, charged and convicted did jail time. It's chasing the wrong things to begin with. So I think that's step one. So step two. It's like an exercise that I would take even job seekers through or, you know, clients like you is like, look for that golden thread of commonality on the deals and clients that you've loved working with. And how did they come into your

[00:07:16] orbit? Was it a referral? You know, was it through your website? Was it from having attended one of your trainings or heard you speak in an event? And then, like you said, I mean, radical honesty with ourselves about, you know, what is the best person or ideal profile that you want to work with, right? Right. And so I think that's step one. So then step two of where, you know, let in with price that

[00:07:42] didn't work out. Again, a lot of scenarios, but one in particular comes up. I was on IT government staffing solution services within the DOD and was working with HP Federal and they had a big program in there that was actually at Fort Knox, right? And we were really trying to win that business. And what I was, I let in with price and then it started to become, well, we need you to cut your markup even more if we're trying to win this business. Next thing you know, markups were like

[00:08:13] 29%. And I'm like, we can't make it work with that. And I failed to position myself as a specialist because at that point in time, we were specialists. Not only could we provide the IT people for IT security, but we were able to hold clearances like secret and top secret clearances and also get people cleared. And that was a huge differentiator of specialism. And I didn't lead in with that.

[00:08:39] I just let in with, oh my God, I want to win this business with you. And I want all this business. So I just kind of kept discounting my rate to the, to it got to the point where I'm like, uh-oh, no recruiter that I'm teamed with is going to work on these roles because we're not going to be able to fill them. I didn't lead in with the value that we provide and the specialism that we provided that they needed in the differentiation. I just let in with price and it all blew up. Um, and I'd say similar to that,

[00:09:07] Anna, same story. You know, we started to work with IBM. Should never have signed a 28% markups. And people are like, what are you doing, Jim? What are you doing? We don't want to- I mean, yeah, there's something to say you have a feather in your cap to say, I worked, you know, with this ginormous whale of a company, but at what cost? Right. You're so great, Anna. It's not all business is good. And if they don't value the services you're providing and the differentiation that you're giving them and how you're solving a business

[00:09:34] problem, then it will continue to be a race to the bottom. Have you learned, Anna, that anytime you're working with a, you've placed tons of people, someone that gives you a really low fee and the next thing you know, they want the next discount. And it's like on and on and on. And you're going, oh my God, they don't value what we do here. Right. Yeah. Like it's a race to the bottom. Well, and I think back to my time mentoring junior recruiters. And

[00:10:00] when I hear, you know, deals going south and whatnot, me personally, like I always go back to the initial conversations and how thorough of an intake conversation did we have? Right. And, you know, did we listen enough? Notoriously known for over-talking and over-explaining and

[00:10:23] not listening more, which is a common problem with good salespeople oftentimes. Do you feel as you reflect back the intake conversations could have been, you know, re-engineered or had more depth to it where then you would have had the awareness to focus on, you know, that niche aspect and need for that particular client? You're a hundred percent right, Anna. I've been guilty of it.

[00:10:53] On the agency side, sometimes you just get so wrapped around the job order itself. I got to find a job. I got to find a job. Well, the culture is tough sometimes because it's all metrics and, you know, it's do or die. So you actually, a lot of times, and I'm seeing this more and more across a lot of organizations outside of even recruiting, it's like they're not empowering their people to

[00:11:19] problem solve like a human, right? Because they're so beholden to not getting sued, like avoiding risk and hitting their numbers that they're just in this transactional do or die. Right. Yeah. Transactional mode. I got to get a job. I got to fill a job to keep my seat. And what I learned was, okay, take a step back. Right. We know that's important, but go in there and really seek to learn about their entire business. Right. And everything out online today, we should know about their business before

[00:11:49] we ever walk in. Right. We'll get to that in a minute. But sitting down and asking, okay, number one, what is your total staffing spend? You know, contract and perm. How many contractors are on assignment here? Grand total and break that down by department. How many direct hires do you use agencies for per year? And then what I thought was, okay, let me get the entire size of the pie here. Right. Right. Because if I place 10 people a year in an account, pat myself on the back,

[00:12:17] think I'm doing a great job. Then I find out my competition's placing 55 people a year. Right. Really, in essence, I've done a terrible job. So I always thought, okay, what's the whole piece of what they're hiring? And then start to ask some of those deeper questions that really uncover business issues and problems and pain. Like, were there, you know, strategic changes that are happening in the company? Could be like downsizing, could be restructuring. What business initiatives are

[00:12:44] they having? Maybe they're opening up a new location. What changes, Anna? Like sometimes they're closing down a facility and that's a great time to go put in contractors. Or there could be all these things that are going on in their business that they're not going to tell us about unless we sit back and ask and listen to the changes in the business and the challenges. And then the great news is then we can thoughtfully come up with something to help them. Right. Let's say, you know,

[00:13:11] like you're saying, let's say they're moving out of a market. Okay. I'm not going to get any business there. Could be a great way to put contractors into their organization and help out talent acquisition as they kind of sunset things. Right. Yeah. So there's so much going on with their business. We have to sit and ask about it in like totality, I think. And I know that's harder when you're chasing, you know, a big whale of a company. But I always operated from the standpoint of if this

[00:13:40] potential client is not willing to spend the time for me to be curious and understand the big picture and the immediate need, then they are probably not my ideal client. And kind of going back to that radical honesty with self, like, you know, being confident, a no, and like aware of my past fumbles and failures to say, like, I am not going to set you up for success client and be able to execute the

[00:14:09] kind of search that you want if we don't do this due diligence. And I know that you have 40 other agencies like banging down your door. And yeah, so we do have to pitch a little bit of that differentiator upfront. But like you said, we should be able to find that information upfront with AI's help and the research. And then I think it directly ties into the conversation about

[00:14:33] positioning and visibility. Right. Those things, if the potential client is wavering a little bit, if you have a strong position and visibility and social credibility, they're more inclined to prioritize your agency meeting over the other 40 that they may have. Would you agree? You are the one that taught me this, Anna, because again, I was like totally not a believer. I'm just

[00:15:00] using LinkedIn to go farm names or whatever. And I can't stress enough to people how accurate Anna, your description is here. I pulled out a stat just to support what you said. Okay. Do you know visionary marketing and Haley marketing say that 77% of B2B buyers go out and do research on the company, on service testimonials, and the actual rep that's been giving the call before they ever even take

[00:15:28] the first meeting or the first phone call. So 77% of buyers out there are out there online looking at you, what you do, what you bring to the table. Like to your point, do you have credibility? What your clients say, what your candidates say. Yes, exactly. Tell me the last time you didn't look at a testimonial before you went and hired a guy to like paint your house or even go to a new restaurant, right?

[00:15:53] Yeah. Well, and then when we were prepping for the call, you were talking about it's a pricing problem. It's not a pricing problem. It's a positioning problem. And, you know, to me, that's like, why can't buyers tell anyone apart right now? And what has happened to create that? Is that on us or them or both? Okay. Number one, buyers are just bombarded, right? They're bombarded with people that have been in our industry.

[00:16:20] And the buyers are oftentimes heads of TA, heads of HR that are drinking out of the fire hose in many different ways. And so, okay. So think about it this way. So you're the head of TA and Kim Henderson calls you and she goes, Hey, Susie Q, I'm just checking in again. Okay. That to me is absolutely zero value, right?

[00:16:45] Because she's got 50 Kim Henderson's called her to check in. So what I sought to do or what helped me and what helped people, you know, I've worked with is when we're approaching, whether it be, you know, VPs, directors, managers, or talent acquisition, start to sell and provide value before you ever even get the first wreck. So what I chose to do is like add value before I ever even walked in the door. And it's so easy today. And some of the things I do, if I can, I'll just give you a couple

[00:17:14] is send them information that ties to their industry and problems that they're having in their industry. So for instance, I got a great article off of SHRM.org about why it's so hard to find CPAs. And I sent it to a company that's trying to hire CPAs and accounting people, you know, send them articles, send them, you know, market trends, geographic trends, skillset trends, send them information that ties to their business, that adds value. Another way, you know,

[00:17:41] candidate market, right? Calling up going, Hey, it's Kim again, checking in, you know, candidate market, show them that you're able to fill a job before you're going to even give you one. Right. Then there's other things too. Highlight them on LinkedIn, highlight them in an article on your website, send them your newsletter. If your company produces one, put them on your podcast. If you actually have one. And here's one that I really love that most people don't do

[00:18:07] quarterly, go out there for your heads of TA, heads of talent acquisition and HR and or your hiring managers to a quarterly webinar that takes an issue or problem that they're struggling with and break it down for 30 minutes. Hey, here's what we found is great ways to, you know, retain IT security peoples. Maybe it's a retention problem. You know what? And Anna, everything I just talked about is free. It costs nothing. It's just a little bit of time and a little bit of planning.

[00:18:38] And I can promise you, you and I might be adding the value, you know, to talent acquisition folks before there's a need, but the vast majority of like agencies out there don't take the time. They just go, Hey, I'm checking it. Yeah, not at all. There's a skill in an art in gaining influence and access and trust. And that takes intentionality. And, you know, it's where I've had success as an

[00:19:04] agency sales leader that now is purely evident in the rooms and experiences that I create for the evolved partners and communities. So, you know, the other simple things are showing up on their content, leaving, sending them a video message, leaving them an audible message and showing up for them so that you can earn the right to ask for the lunch appointment or the breakfast appointment or the in-person meeting.

[00:19:34] And there are so many ways I feel like, you know, from our seats to stand out that other people are hiding behind emails and saying, Oh, I want to tell you about this great candidate I'm representing. There are different ways that you can do that through your own content and in showing up for that potential decision maker or company that you feel there's alignment with regarding the services and products that a company would

[00:20:01] provide. And I love you said that. Yeah. Showing up, adding value through your own content. I'm, there's one staffing company that I work with and she places nothing but light industrial people. And she goes out and highlights all of her workers on assignment and talks about, you know, does a video of them shows what they've accomplished, what they've done. And she posts that. And I look at them like, it's twofold. You have talent acquisition people going, wow, this company knows

[00:20:26] how to find these people, you know, get them to us and make them happy. And the candidates are also like, wow, they've got great jobs. They treat their people well, you know? So there's so many ways that we could do. I mean, Anna, I even rewrote job descriptions for a client one time standpoint. We're going, hey, I can get a chance to kind of put my hands on this and kind of lead it the way I want to. You hate to say that selfishly, but you know, again, job descriptions, like you said,

[00:20:54] no one wants to redo them. They could be 10 years old. They could be outdated or even things in it that a company has like a restructuring or a layoff, helping their displaced workers, going on site and helping them to the best degree you can. The company, the talent acquisition leader will remember that, like the candidates will. So there's so many ways we can make, as I call it, the emotional deposit, right? And add value. And none of it really costs that much money.

[00:21:21] I believe it was the final one that helped me one time. So let's say you have a talent acquisition person who's struggling with a problem. And we all work with multiple TA people and VPs. And I remember once you were struggling with this problem, they were doing like a software implementation. I said, hey, you know, company X across town, they did that last year. How about I connect you to their talent acquisition leader and you guys can just talk as peers and see if you have anything that they can help you out with. And she's like, oh my God, that will be great.

[00:21:50] You know? So opportunities are all around us that value. We just kind of take the time and come up and looking for it, right? Well, it's creating that value. And I was so tickled recently because an old memory came up on Facebook. I can't remember how many years ago it was, but I used to host HR training socials is what I called them. And that was my way to get new potential clients in the door, provide their HR

[00:22:18] cert information, do the speaker, all the things. And I was doing that 15 years ago. And I look at where I am today, curating the evolved tables for our partners, which is safe space for those sparked conversations relevant to the world of work, hiring challenges and opportunities and curating that experience so that I am adding value. And then people just organically are going to trust the brand

[00:22:46] and the name and come back. And that's when you start getting inbound for staffing or events, whatever it may be. And inbound's what you want, Anna, right? I mean, that's what we all want versus beating our head through the wall, trying to go outbound. But again, to your point, I can guarantee you would not be where you are today doing everything you're doing with all the opportunities that you've created for yourself, were it not for the fact that you approached it for years from the

[00:23:11] standpoint of, I've got to have visibility, I've got to have relevance and significance, and I've got to add value first before the sale. And the fact you approached it that way, I think, is it's your point now where outbound opportunities are coming to you. And that's the beauty of the entire thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, never in a million years, I was telling another conference host this just the other day, I said, if you had told me by all of 23, I would be where I am today,

[00:23:40] I would have laughed in your face. Like I never could have anticipated this type of career pivot. But, you know, because of the visibility and community building and a high priority of adding value to others that could be a lunch and learn, it was the ask a recruiter stage, things like that,

[00:24:02] those have had this unexpected ROI and ripple effect of impact that has not only elevated my expertise and skills, but many others through community building, which is just amazing to think about. Yeah. You've helped a lot of people, not only from the standpoint of like, you know, on the client side and talent professionals, but also candidates. And the one thing, you know, from a connecting the dots standpoint, what you've done, and when you're able to add the value,

[00:24:31] you're putting, you're back to positioning, you start to get positioned as more of a specialist and that's your differentiator. Right. And then what happens from there, it enables you to go and command a higher price because in essence, you're a specialist in something, maybe it's EOD, IT placement, or I'm working with a company right now, and they are cleaning up, doing nothing but inpatient coders and RN case managers. They've figured out how to do it. And I got, I'm working with

[00:24:59] who does nothing but field safety engineers when they're laying power lines. And you wouldn't think about it. So how does, how does somebody pick a niche when they had been a generalist for years? Like I was a generalist recruiter for many years. There were times I niched down to accounting and finance. And then in my entrepreneurial journey, because this is a great story that ties into positioning, because I had positioned myself as a job search expert and I was doing resume review and

[00:25:29] LinkedIn work for job seekers. When the RPO I was working for was going to have to lay off more people, instead of going outside for an outplacement company, they looked internally and said, Hey, Anna, I see that you do this. Will you act like outplacement, which saved my job for three months, being able to, you know, get testimonials and work with people that were getting laid off. And that was

[00:25:57] the aha moment that gave me the focus to only work with job seekers that were in HR and talent, which seemed kind of polarizing at the time. But we're so focused on helping everyone else find a job that many of us, as one man said, I would rather stab myself in the leg with a fork than talk about myself or promote myself, or do all these things. But I know I need to, right. And so that

[00:26:26] was the evolution of finding my niche. What advice would you have for people listening that could staff a variety of positions have had some success, but how do they choose and, you know, niching down or niching down is terrifying for a lot of people in business. Yes. I love the question. Okay. Here's a thought. So it doesn't necessarily have to be an all or

[00:26:50] nothing approach, right? So what I'd say is if it's not readily apparent to you, you're working the agency side, sales recruiting, management, placing people, sit down and look at your data, right? Look at like the past year, look where you've actually been able to help out TA. What placements have you made? What industry have they been around? What skill set have they been around? What

[00:27:14] geography, what specific business problem have you been able to solve where you think you have leverage? And Anna, I can almost promise you that any given company could sit down, they look at the data and go, wow, we've got leverage in X. We solved this particular business problem. We're specialists in why we really understand inpatient coders or what it takes to get them.

[00:27:39] Most would say their differentiator is service or relationships or that quote, we really care, which doesn't land, right? Yes. It's so funny you said that, Anna. I was at the Colorado Staffing Association a few weeks ago and the young lady that went before me was with Haley Marketing. And she said the exact same thing. It's like you were in the room. She's like, okay, we care more. Our people are great. We have great

[00:28:06] servers. She's like, no, no, no. Everybody says that as the differentiator. And to your point, I think sitting down and looking at your data, where you excel, where you have leverage delivered in the past, what problem you solve, and it should become a bit apparent, like what area to double down on, right? But then I think it goes to, from a differentiation standpoint, yeah, it's like that age-old thing. You sit down with the prospect and they go, how are you different in your company, Kim Henderson? And you see the... Tell me. Go ahead.

[00:28:36] So you see that, yeah, the rep is like, well, we do this when we do that. And they're backed into a corner cowering. And the client goes, well, everybody says that you're no different. So the way I like to handle it was, hey, there are a lot of things that my company thinks we do well. And there are a lot of things that our other clients tell us we do well, but none of those may matter to you. None of those may be important to you because you're a totally different organization.

[00:29:01] So, you know, what would you like to get out of a staffing relationship today that's missing? Where are your current vendors falling short? What do you want to see that you haven't seen? Or what do you wish to... If you could have a magic wand. Yeah. What needs to be there that hasn't been there? And it really gives me a chance to sit back and go, okay, wow, they're really struggling to go get field safety engineers. You know, wow, is this something that we can do, right? Or they're doing great everywhere where they're struggling to

[00:29:30] find people in Boise, Idaho. Is that something we can do? But Anna, I'd like to tell our listeners, think of it this way, right? Because everyone's had this experience. You and I have bought a car, right? So you go into the dealership and let's say the only thing Anna Morgan cares about is, I want a truck that has four wheel drive and I want it at the best possible price. I don't care about the tech. I don't care about anything. And you walk in and the salesperson sits there for an

[00:30:00] hour telling you the features and benefits and the tech and the colors and this and that. And you're going, I don't care. I want you to listen to me. All I care about is four wheel drive and the lowest best price. So I think that's, if we approach our talent acquisition folks like that from the agency side, it's going to come across a lot better, right? Listening to what it is they need and what they want versus just slamming up with features and benefits and we're great. We do this,

[00:30:26] whatever. Everybody says that. Truly understand what they think is a differentiator. And hopefully we can match it and craft a meaningful answer. Hey, we can help you with those jobs in Boise, Idaho. But to your point earlier, sometimes we can't help them. And that's where the honesty comes in. I've had to say it. Hey, we don't place a team for people. We would, we would fail with that and we would frustrate you. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's all about selling the value instead of

[00:30:55] defending the markup or the price. Right. So, you know, I think back to those moments where a conversation turned, when I was focusing on the value, then it became an easier price conversation. And I was trying to think back, like, what is the tell right before that happens when you are selling the value and not defending your markup? And it's also about that confidence, right? Like knowing who we

[00:31:22] are as a provider and knowing which levers to pull on as we have listened to the right market research and intel to be able to have that ease and flow with a pricing conversation, which 90% of us get nervous in those rooms. I'm so glad you said this because I would have forgotten about it. Oftentimes in within, like if you're working in an agency environment, maybe your management can go in and articulate the value

[00:31:51] they provide to a talent acquisition leader. Sometimes it gets lost in translation down at being, we'll call it the sales account management lever. Maybe they go in and they can't articulate it. They can't clearly state what it is. So I think that up and down your organization, you know, the specialization, the value you bring, the leverage you're going to use and the problem that you solve, make sure that everyone understands what that is and how to articulate it when they're out in front

[00:32:17] of a TA leader. And I think there's a drop there sometimes, at least I've noticed it, you know, in my past. And I took it as like a personal, my personal failure. If my team articulate that, that's on me. I didn't explain it well enough. I didn't help them through that well enough, but I'm glad you brought that up. I would have forgotten it. No, no. Thank you. I'm loving the conversation. I was thinking this is inspiring me to want to have

[00:32:43] additional guests that are on the buying side, right? That are fielding a million different proposals and emails and phone calls and voicemails from our industry. Like what are their hot takes, red flags, and what behavior would they like to see more or less of, right? Because then that would really give us more clarity. And I've, again, interviewed enough hiring managers over my career

[00:33:10] to have a strong understanding of that, but things are changing. And a lot of decision makers of organizations are looking for tech to solve their problems. And my strong opinion is you're always going to need humans with lived expertise and experience that can really tell that story and accelerate trust because a robot can't do that right now.

[00:33:37] No, you're right. Anna, it can handle the busy work. I call it the crap work, right? For lack of a word. It can handle that, but you're right. It can't negotiate an offer for a candidate. It can't necessarily talk through business challenges and how we can provide an impact and a result to help our clients solve those business challenges. And so many of them, again, are so busy. They're just like, get to the point. Like, what can you provide? Like, can you take this pain off my plate? And I think about that as a

[00:34:05] entrepreneur, right? And some good partners I've chosen and so not great. And, you know, the deal analysis from that standpoint, like, what should I have asked more of? What is on my side of the street that I'm responsible for, for a deal that didn't quite go as I had hoped? And then what would have been the changes or actions my partner could have taken to make this experience even better? So

[00:34:35] the HR and TA leaders that are listening, like, what are they expecting from a partner that they're not asking for right now? We want to hear from them. But if you had to answer that question, what do you think they would say? First of all, I love that. Having them come on and from their experience provide their perspective and management point will be awesome. But okay, to answer the question though, I like to look at it

[00:34:59] from the standpoint and it starts with mindset. What ultimately, what does every TA leader or, you know, line manager or line VP director want from us? And when I ask that question, oftentimes like at a conference or in training, people go, oh, they want a person. I'm like, yeah, true. They want a person, but at the base level, I go dial it back a little bit, make it even more like elementary than that. They want us to solve their problem, make it go away.

[00:35:26] They're not hiring someone or needing to hire someone because things are honky dory over there. They either need to be more efficient, go to market quicker, stop bleeding, you know, the bleeding and become more profitable, reduce churn. It could be a multitude of different business issues, but they're hiring because they've got a problem. So it's my job to understand at the root level, what is the issue that's causing them to hire? What's the issue that's

[00:35:54] causing them to miss deadlines or miss a new software release? And that helps me frame the whole conversation. They want you to solve their problem because they're not interviewing because they're bored usually. No, no. And that's a good segue into hot takes because I can feel your energy here. So in service of this topic, is there anything else that you have strong opinions on or hot takes? And then I have some specific questions for you.

[00:36:22] Okay. All right. What would any conversation be, Anna, if we didn't bring up AI? Come on, we have to do that. I think, okay, I acknowledge and I get it that it will replace some jobs, right? I mean, it's inevitable that it will, but I think, again, I go back to framing, right? So take yourself back years and years and years ago, or I'll take myself back because you're a bit younger. But I remember when like the fax machine was used and I remember like-

[00:36:49] I literally doxed my very first resume submittal clients. Yeah, so did I, right? Okay. So think of it this way. So here we are, fast forward in 2026. What would you think of a recruiter or a sales rep or a TA professional that says, no, I'm not embracing using this. I'm not embracing using SharePoint. I'm going to go and I'm going to fax a resume. You would be like, okay, wow. Oh, you're not going to last here.

[00:37:15] You're not adaptable. You're not flexible. So that's kind of, let's move it over that scenario over to AI. I feel like that, okay, it will consume some jobs, but I think by and large, it's probably going to just change the way some jobs are done. And I think to frame it in people's mind, maybe don't look at it that AI is going to take my job away. What could happen is say your recruiter who's using AI and you can get things done in two hours. That's taking the recruiter

[00:37:45] not using AI six hours. Who do you think is going to keep their job? So maybe it's not AI is going to replace your job, but a person who's using it effectively and efficiently is going to become that much faster, better, stronger, and get a better result. And you, that person may replace on using it versus you if you're not. So I like to do it that way, right? It's like an adaptation

[00:38:09] type of thing, you know? There's a good connection callback to your resistance in positioning and visibility with LinkedIn all those years ago, right? And I think from a trust acceleration and visibility standpoint now, you as a provider, right? Showcasing how you're using AI in your business to

[00:38:34] create better outcomes for candidates and your clients, that shows relevancy. And like you said, that you're not in the facts era, that you're in the AI area. And I've had a lot of conversations with different generations in the world of work. And I know for Gen X and older, there is a high priority to leave this world of work and community better off than it was when we started. However,

[00:39:04] the younger generations, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, millennials are kind of aging up out now in a way. What they have experienced is so vastly different than how you and I came into talent acquisition and recruiting. And so showcasing your skills that you're keeping them sharp in service of AI will only help, I think,

[00:39:30] increase trust and attract the right clients that want a strong partner that is human-centered but gets the AI game in service of, you know, solving problems in hiring today. And Anna, I think too, some people may be scared is probably a bad word, but maybe they're almost a little bit frozen and they don't know where to go learn AI. Yeah. What's your advice for those people? And then I would like to...

[00:40:00] LinkedIn Learning has great courses that you can step through. LinkedIn, I think it's the LinkedIn AI recruiter. Modules are really, really good. I know SHRM has for HR as well, AI components for talent acquisition. But those are the two that I'm familiar with. It sounds like you have others that people can learn. Well, I mean, my biggest accelerator personally in learning and relevancy

[00:40:24] around all recruiting topics has really been the aha moment of the community I've found through conferences. And I won't let this episode end without talking a little bit about that because, one, I want organizations to prioritize letting their employees out of the office to be in community,

[00:40:47] whether it's a knitting club or a, you know, two-day $1,600 conference in San Francisco, right? The power and magic of what happens in those rooms, mine and many others that I've attempted in this space, is that essence of being seen, heard, and understood. And that's when the armor comes off, right? And people say, oh my gosh, Kim, I'm so glad you said that. Like, I did a workday implementation

[00:41:17] and it was an absolute shit show, right? Like, please give me some experience, strength, and hope so that I can get through the rest of this implementation or something. So with that, like, how have you leveraged events and conferences for your own learning and positioning for, you know, new clients? I love that you're bringing up conferences and getting together, whether it's like a conference or like a professional association, you know, meeting, gathering.

[00:41:45] So what I'd say first is, kind of goes back to what we talked about in the beginning, make sure you're picking the right ones, right? That align to, you know, your niche or your target audience. Because I think when people sometimes don't get things that they expected out of a conference, maybe they were in the wrong room to begin with. So understand who's going to be in the room and what the topics you're going to be. And that's something that you want to be. Jump in, Anna. You got something to say.

[00:42:12] I don't want to interrupt you, but I want to know, like, for the TA leaders or people that own businesses like you do, where do you go to find those conferences? And what do you look for in the content to say, yes, Evolve in Atlanta is a hell yes for me, or ERE Recruiting Innovation Summit is the perfect place? Like, the lens that you're looking through is going to be a little bit different

[00:42:36] than what I would have looked at when I was in-house Fortune 500 retail leader. Yeah, you're right. It depends on what, you know, perspective is of where you are. But I would say, I want to know topics, right? I want to see what topics are going to be talked about. Because that really is how, like, if I'm a TA leader or if I'm, you know, working the agency side, I want to see topics that are timely, that are what I personally and my team is personally struggling with. And I

[00:43:06] want to see some kind of expertise there that I can rely on. Colorado Staffing Association, they had a guy who was like the AI person. He was the Colorado Secretary of State. Very cool. And he had a marvelous presentation on AI, and I learned so much. So I said, you know, authority, like who's speaking, right? Do they really know the topic? And then what are the topics? Are these problems that I'm having, my team's having, or problems that my customer's having that are going

[00:43:33] to make me more educated that I can solve? So I think that's really the key. And then in format, you know, I definitely like, you know, obviously people, you know, educating me, but I also want, to your point, have it where it can kind of be a two-way street where there is like Q&A and little breakout workshops where I can talk about, okay, here's what we're struggling with. Here's what we've seen. Have you experienced that? What did you do? And you, you hit it earlier. What did you do?

[00:43:59] How did you address it? So I can learn from others. No one person has all the answers. It's just an impossibility, right? No matter what topic. So that, those to me, I look for, yeah, format, topics, speakers that all kind of align the, my problem or my client's problem, or both. Awesome. And how many conferences do you typically try to attend or speak at annually? I'd like to do more, but right now I'm right around like four to five per year.

[00:44:28] And I think that's like, for everyone listening, you know, who might have a similar story to me, like, I didn't know these existed. Like, I went to my first SourceCon back in 2018. And I thought, you know, I was like, whoa, this is way too much for me. And then post COVID, I really prioritized that. And I learned so much and was given, you know, such clarity and inspiration that

[00:44:55] has driven a lot of where I am today. But for people listening, like, it doesn't have to be 10 conferences. It may be two ones that are niche or industry specific a year, and then prioritize quarterly dinners or community events that provide that same sense of relief and the unexpected

[00:45:19] education that you get. Because if you don't say yes to something new, you'll never get to experience that magic of the what if. So it doesn't have to be this huge production, like just one, you know. Yeah, learning is a lifelong journey. And Anna, you know, to your point, there's conferences, but there's also, you know, professional associations within your community that you can go to. Like, let's say you want to be around accounting and finance professionals,

[00:45:48] or you want to be around, you know, local TA professionals. Go and join those associations and challenge yourself. I had to challenge myself. Attend, you know, one event every like six weeks, right? Even if it's a lunch. We all have to eat breakfast. I mean, I think I'm always early morning breakfast gal. And honestly, I think that's where your true decision makers would prioritize

[00:46:13] community over a happy hour or dinner, because the person writing the check or saying yes, that you're going to be the preferred partner, and we're going to do business with you. They're not in the weeds of the business. They're not reconciling the accounts. They're not going on sales calls with their teams. You know, they're true executives. So they are likely prioritizing their family,

[00:46:39] their travel, their marathon training, their peptides, those things. And if they were someone that, you know, is prioritizing community, I think it's going to be during business hours. Just my hot take. I agree with you, Anna. You're right. That's an economic buyer, that guy or gal who writes the check and is, you know, going to bring you on to go and fill X roles. You're right. They're not out dumping beer on their head, you know, at happy hour, you know, every night. That's just not worth

[00:47:07] that. Kim, don't get me started on the beer and happy hour thing, because, you know, as I'm curating these spaces, you know that I don't drink alcohol, but it's like, I don't prioritize the bar when I'm building experiences, right? And I look at some of these upcoming conferences that are, you know, floors of the honky-tongs and loud music, and I'm like, how much deals are going to go down when people are blackout drunk, bad behavior, and can't remember a thing?

[00:47:36] You're right. Anna, you know, I even have a rule, too. It's like the conferences I go to, I mean, I want to be present. I want to, like, get to know the people, and I don't drink at them. You know, I get, like, you know, one beer and just hang on to it all night and put it down, and that's not the point of being there, right? You know, we're all not in high school. In high school, yeah. The point is to go and learn, to engage, to meet, to have conversations, understand people, and get something out of it, right? And help these people get something out of it, too. It's not

[00:48:06] frat party. I guess that's what I'm trying to say, but you're right. When I see that online, I'm like, oh, my goodness. You know, if people say to you, you know, hey, do you want to go out with us to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, I'm okay. I'm okay, you know? I mean, you and I, like, we grew up in the sales culture of get them drunk and close them, right? Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right, Anna. Okay, so we're both Gen X, and as you keep clients out, and you fill them with drinks, you know, you're keeping up with them. And the culture, right?

[00:48:36] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean, I tell companies this, and I've done different talks on it. It's like, booze is a bonding strategy. You have more than just a culture problem. You know, so. All right, so one last question on conferences. Like, any, like, hot takes, red flags, things that you love or hate that stood out to you when you've attended? Okay, here's what I would say to folks, especially if you're newer to conferences,

[00:49:04] and you want to have an impact, and you want to learn, and you want to meet and have, like, real conversations, pick an appropriate size. And what I mean by that is I feel like the sweet spot of conferences is anywhere from, like, 75 to 130, 150 people, you know, kind of that mid-sized conference. I feel like that's where I'm able to meet people, get to know them, and have, like, real conversations. The conferences I get the least out of, and I'm thinking of one in particular,

[00:49:32] and I don't want to say it. Don't say it. But it's like 1,300 people there, and it's just like, it's overwhelming. It's like, you know, you're in a gargantuan hotel. You're walking for, like, you know, miles, and you have to try to set up meetings with people ahead of time and try to meet with them there and schedule it. I feel like I can't have an impact, and I feel like other people can't really have an impact when they're that big. So I'd say start with a more of a friendly,

[00:49:59] bottomless conference. Yeah. Would you agree with that? I mean, that's where I've had success. However, you know, the business development salesperson in me, the strategy gal, like, I believe there are ways to build out the strategy so you get the most out of a conference, whether it's 75 people or 4,000 people. And that, again, comes down to planning and intentionality,

[00:50:25] and probably something that I will be kind of putting together for conferences in the future, where we have like a day zero get together. Why did you pick this conference? What do you want to get out of it? Here's a framework of... Because people have lost the art of connection and communication IRL. It's like our skills became numb or dulled after COVID. And so if I could provide a way for

[00:50:54] newcomers that are kind of new on the conference scene to learn a way to maximize the event and reduce the nerves, then they're walking into the conference and people know their name. Like, how nice is that when someone recognizes you? I take that for granted because I have a huge community. But, you know, for an individual contributor that's only at their second conference,

[00:51:21] having a little mini team that, you know, you all got together beforehand and proclaimed like what your goals were and why you're there. Then you have like a sales army on the floor saying, Hey, Kim, I knew that you wanted to talk to a manufacturing leader. I met Joe Brown. Go find him or make that introduction. And then after the event, how many times have you attended a conference and got back to your

[00:51:47] desk and you had all these ideas swirling around and all the people you wanted to follow up and appointments you wanted to book, but you never executed on it because you were drinking from a fire hose. And that's especially relevant for entrepreneurs versus in-house folks. But yeah, that's coming soon. I love it. You said it so well. It takes intentional planning, especially with the larger conferences, right? You know, scheduling people so you can go and maximize the event. And personally,

[00:52:14] I have personally struggled with the really large ones, you know, getting everything lined up and trying to get in front of the people. And actually, there's a strategy behind making content leading up to the event the day before the event. Like there's frameworks that I could teach to help spark conversations online that would accelerate lunch meetings, dinner meetings, fringe events, stuff like that. I love it. And you said one thing that really struck a great chord with me. You said,

[00:52:43] you're asking them, what do you want to get out of this? What do you want to get out of our time together? And can I tell you, Anna, in every client meeting I've been to, I ask that question up front, right? You know, what topics do you want to make certain that I cover? What do you want to get out of our time together so I can be certain that I'm giving you what you need? And man, people will tell you, but when you ask, they'll tell you, hey, I want to know X. How do you do Y? People will tell you. You just have to ask. So the way you teed that up, I'm like, I love it. Yeah.

[00:53:12] What do you want to get out of this? And that way, you know what direction to go in with people. Again, it's like the car scenario. Don't talk about the heated seats when all they care about is a V8 engine. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I mean, you and I could, we have the gift of gab and both have the mutual passion for this industry and elevating the world of work and, you know, putting more people

[00:53:35] to work and more money in people's pockets for those that, you know, help people get placed. So I'm excited to have learned, you know, more about your evolution. So last question, you've had just an extensive, beautiful career, but have you believed about selling even just five, 10 years ago

[00:53:57] that you flat out don't believe now? I think that today it has to be a multi-channel approach, right? And I think that I thought before, if I just hammer away with phone call after phone call, after phone call, thinking of becoming the stalker, the crazed stalker, you know, eventually they'll give in and they'll meet with me. And I don't believe that anymore. The phone call

[00:54:24] is important, but so is LinkedIn. So is the email. So is going to the event. So is creating content. It's a multi-channel approach, right? And I'll layer on top of that. I always thought sales and marketing and my stack of care were two separate things. And I'm like, marketing, that's cups and koozies and things like that. Uh-uh. Very short-sighted, very stupid of me to not leverage and link. Because sales and marketing, especially they are very inherently like intertwined, right?

[00:54:54] As far as, you know, getting the message out there. So I'd say that I thought, big mistake. They were two separate things. Today I realize they're intertwined and they go hand in hand and marketing helps you with the sale. And then finally to the point, that's the phone call thing. It's not about more phone calls. We got to make them, but it's not about beat your head through a wall with a phone. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, for the younger recruiters out there that

[00:55:19] are banging out the emails and building all the automations and all of that, like have a conversation, add value in some capacity first, and then watch the magic happen. You know, one thing I did not say, and this would be something I would use in my playbook if I were still in a seat as you are,

[00:55:42] or a business owner like you are. Why are you not inviting your current clients or someone that you're doing really great business with that you love, or, you know, one of your hot prospects to a conference with you? Yes. That is another simple way to add value. And you immediately, your profile and persona

[00:56:07] as the salesperson that wants the rec becomes dissolved. And you are now a conference BFF. You are providing, you know, learning community. You're making introductions. That all builds trust. And trust, to me, is that tipping point to career opportunities and new business. Yeah, the emotional deposit, right, the rapport building works with professional associations,

[00:56:32] too. Like if you belong to National Defense Industrial Association, inviting one of your prospects or clients to go to that lunch meeting or that dinner meeting with you. Again, it's just your point. It builds credibility, builds the trust, puts you in a whole different league of providers versus just the person that's like, hey, I'm checking in. Got a job order? Yeah. Hopefully our listeners see the difference, right?

[00:56:57] Oh, I know. And if you're using that line, call Kim or myself and we will help you. Please stop. Please stop. All right, Kim, we're close to wrapping up. So what are you excited about the rest of 2026? Are you speaking anywhere? I know you and I are going to talk about Evolve IRL after we hit, you know, stop. But tell us, you know, what's cooking in your kitchen and where you want people

[00:57:26] to find you. I'm excited about two things, two conferences. The first is NAPS, National Association of Personnel Services. It's such a mouthful to say. I'm going to be doing a segment there in November on differentiation. And I think that, you know, just being one of the oldest industry conferences and oldest, you know, associations is just, they've done wonderful work throughout the years. Yeah. And then American Staffing Association is having Staffing World in October. And I always go to that one as well.

[00:57:54] I wish I could make that, but my October is just jammed this year. I know. And it's in Colorado and you and I are East Coast, Florida, Georgia girls. So it is a little bit of a ways, but I do feel when I go there, I've been the past three years that they do have good speakers. They do have good, again, the topics. I look at the topics and I plan out where I'm going to go. There's things that, again, no one knows everything. I'm like, oh, I don't know that. I need

[00:58:21] to understand. Like I get how labor laws are changing and things like that. I mean, yeah, I'm going to go attend that session. So again, those are two great conferences and I'd say that they bring in people from, you know, all different types from TA to the agency side. So I think those are the two big ones for the remainder of the year. Yeah. Okay. Well, awesome. Well, you know, I hope that we get to, you know, continue sharing stages

[00:58:47] in the future. And I'm so glad that you reached out and scheduled some time and, you know, Thank you, Anna. Thank you for helping me not be a dinosaur and embrace lifelong learning and embrace doing the LinkedIn. Now I feel like I'm an evangelist trying to explain that to students in my training class. I'm like, guys, if for nothing else, you know, call it free advertising. You've

[00:59:14] got to use it. It's free. But you're the one that taught me that and kind of led me, you know, through the darkness on it to accept it and to the keyword adapt, right? And I'd say that's key. You're already adapting and evolving. Yeah. And I so appreciate you saying that because it does directly tie into what I've built with Evolve as far as what I'm hoping the outcome that

[00:59:42] you received from my coaching and our time together in community is exactly the results and what I hope my attendees and partners experience, you know, when they say yes to evolve, whether that's the in-person conference, the learning library, the podcast, or the tables. So thank you for reflecting that back. It means, Hey, everyone go to evolve. I'm telling you, I've not been,

[01:00:07] but the reviews in terms of what I read, see, I read on LinkedIn too. I read. Reviews have been wonderful. So keep it up. Awesome. Well, as you said, we don't have a pricing problem. We have a positioning problem. And thank you for the conversation today. For those of you listening, let us know what you think. We'll include all the information on where to find Kim. You know,

[01:00:32] she's hanging out on LinkedIn. So go there and you all connect, learn, and evolve together. Thank you so much for being here, Kim. We really appreciate it. Thanks for joining the Evolve Talent in HR show. If the conversation landed, share it, tell a leader, pass it forward. That is the multiplier in action. One connection at a time, building momentum across our community. And that is what evolve is. We build

[01:00:59] the rooms where connection compounds into impact. So don't sleep on the in-person experiences, the IRL conferences, the executive tables, the fringe events, our community show up. That's where the multiplier multiplies. If you know, you know. Head over to evolve-conference.com to see what's evolving and how to stay connected. We'll see you next time.