093: Grief at Work – The Leadership Blind Spot

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01] Hey, what's going on everybody? David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners. We are back for a brand new episode, brand new guests, and a very important topic as we get into the holiday season. And something that is unfortunately something that everyone deals with at some point in their life or multiple times during the year. And it just becomes a very stressful, tough year for individuals that go through grief.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01] And so I'm thrilled to have on for Episode 93, Kim Vesey. Welcome, Kim. How are you today?

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02] I'm great, David. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely. We've had this scheduled for quite some time. And just like a lot of my other guests, I talk to them and get them on the schedule for booking as a guest. And then it's six months later, we have the actual episode. So that's where my bookings are these days. And I'm very blessed to have so many people that want to come on and share their stories and share their background. So a couple of things before we get started. We are live on LinkedIn and YouTube.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01] If you are watching live, thanks for making this part of your Monday. And we obviously want to hear from you. If you have questions or comments along the way for Kim, please reach out and put them in the chat. There will be some links in the summary notes for everybody to check out Kim after the fact if you are catching this on demand.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01] So, Kim, walk us through your journey in your career and kind of start with, you know, what did you want to be when you were younger? You know, in school, what did you want to do when you grew up kind of thing? And we'll go from there.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02] OK, great. Well, you know, David, I always knew at a young age that I wanted to be a nurse that I was confident about. And as soon as I graduated from high school off, I went to nursing school. And when I got to nursing school, I wasn't sure what kind of nurse I wanted to be. But as I went through my training, I listened to a hospice nurse talk about what she did. And it was like, that's it. That's what I want to do.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02] And so I needed to get a year of medical surgical experience at a hospital to be qualified to do home care nursing in a hospice. So that's what I did. I got one year of experience. And then I was off to hospice at the age of 24 to care for dying patients. And I've done that and brief care for the last 44 years now. So it's been a privilege and an honor to walk alongside people. Dying people are incredible teachers.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02] You know, they've got a perspective on life that we don't have. Right. They really are at the end of their life. They know it. And they just have great life lessons to share.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, definitely. So doing this for 40 plus years, what what has grief taught you about people life and the way we show up for one another?

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02] You know, grief is very unique to the individual. And, you know, you can have five people that have all lost a spouse. Right. Same age, same type of diagnosis. And they're all going to grieve totally different. It's a very unique experience. So you can't really group people into segments based on, you know, the type of loss or say, well, you're going to do this or you're going to need that. Right. And grief is up and down. It's like riding a roller coaster backwards with a blindfold on.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02] You know, you just can't always anticipate what's going to happen next. And, you know, a lot of times people who are grieving aren't comfortable sharing their feelings because they know everyone around them. And no one wants to hear it. Yeah. Right. We are a grief, illiterate society. People don't want to talk about grief and, you know, they don't know what to say. So they stumble and they say things that are cliche ish and, you know, maybe aren't always supportive.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So it's about just being present. Yeah. Just saying, I'm so sorry you're going through this and I wish I could help with your pain, you know, but I'm willing to sit with you and let you know I care about you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You don't have to have perfect words.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. I've been to a lot of funerals, unfortunately, and people that I go to support and be there for them. Some don't expect me to show up and, you know, so like and I've been around people that are like, I don't know what to say. Like, what do I say when I walk up and shake their hand or give them a hug? Like, what do I do? And it's just like so, you know, I think it's just as you do it, just like anything else, as you do it a few times, gets easier.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. In a sense, but it's more it's still difficult. It's still difficult to talk to someone who just lost somebody or a loved one or a child or spouse or family friend, co-worker, whatever it might be. So, you know, I really do like the way you put that. It's just everyone does it differently. They experience it differently. They process it differently, especially during the tough times of the season, right?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01] The holidays and their birthday and things that, you know, you would see them or call them and experience life together. And when you can't do that anymore, it's just a piece of of that person is no longer there. So, you know, that's incredible. You've done that. And so my last question is just to get to know a little bit more. You know, what's the biggest piece of advice you've ever received and how has it shaped who you are?

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02] One of my patients told me early in my career, I was running late when I got to his house and I was all like stressed out because of that. And he said, now sit down for a minute. And I said, all right. So I sat down. He goes, now give me your hands. And I'm like, I'm the nurse, you know, you're the patient. Right. He said, no, give me your hands. And so I gave him my hands and he says, now take a deep breath. And I took a deep breath and he says, now ask yourself, is this going to matter on the day that you die?

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02] Mm hmm. Because if it's not, let it go in the big scheme of things. It's not important. Don't let it ruin your day. You know, and that literally was probably in 1985 that he gave me that advice. You know, just like many other things. I don't always live by it, but it stuck with me. Right. Yeah. And being present. You know, when we have the opportunity to be present with family, friends, loved ones, experiences, make it happen.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know, because you never know when that opportunity is not going to be there. And when it's all said and done, all you have left is pictures and the memories you have in your heart, mind, you know?

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Yeah.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That is that is incredible. And I appreciate you sharing all that, you know, time you don't get back. And so you have to make the most of it. Right. And so this also is an important month for men. It is the mental health awareness month for men. So I did put out on Speakeasy HR a recent blog about that and and how businesses can help support men and their mental health.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01] It's it's becoming more and more of a of a common theme in our workplaces and grief and mental health and everything that men and women have to deal with. So check out that and all the other content at speakeasyhr.com. All right. Well, can I say one quick thing about that? Yeah.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02] In regards to men, men grieve totally differently than women. Women tend to talk about it, go out with their friends. Right. Have a cup of coffee, have a drink, whatever. And yeah, I got it. Men tend to stuff it down more. I mean, just I mean, just to classify by gender. Right. Men tend to stuff it down more and I'm tough. I can take care of this. I got to take care of my family. I got to take care of my job. Right. So there are needs and grief can be different than a woman's needs of grief.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, we're going to unpack that for sure on this episode. And so we're going to lighten it up a little bit. We're going to do the world famous envelope icebreaker game. So let me transition to that. Just think of a number one through 15 and I'll get that here in a second. All right.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01] So one 15, you just have to pick a number and we're going to see what is in the envelope.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02] All right. I'm going with number nine.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01] Number nine. All right. Here we go, Kim. Number nine. What do we have? Oh, this is a good one. What's something small that instantly boosts your mood at work or your day?

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02] I'm seeing a sunshine or something that represents the outdoors life creation. Truly, if I can just, you know, look out right now, I'm looking out at leaves turning colors here in Ohio. You know, it's beautiful. And so that will just kind of ground me.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. See, that wasn't so bad. That was great.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02] That wasn't bad. Okay. Yeah. Some of them have been tough. I watch your podcast and they've been tough sometimes.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You never know. Some people are really excited. They're like, Ooh, this is interesting. I don't know about this, but you know, you did great. You did great. Thanks for sharing that. And yeah, we've had a great fall here. I mean, I'm, I'm in Kentucky. I feel like the month of October, we had great weather. We, we didn't go from 80 to 20. And so the, the, the season has kind of slowly gotten here of the colder weather.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01] But I feel like anybody in the Midwest has felt that this year and it's been, it's been great. Do you know about this caterpillar? If you find a fuzzy caterpillar that's black and a lot of their body is brown, it's going to be a mild winter.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02] I've heard that.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if it's true. Okay.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01] Well, for what it's worth, I have found two that are very brown in the last couple of weeks. So, Oh, we have a mild winter. We have a mild winter than that is maybe that that's right. Um, so, all right.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02] Well, um, in the spring and validate it, right?

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01] Well, we'll go back to this and I'll say, all right, episode 93, I predicted a mild winter, but, um, yeah, we'll see. Um, all right. Well, we're going to, uh, just hear a few messages from our presenting sponsor payroll partners, and then we'll be back here in about one minute. So hang tight.

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[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01] So there's a lot of technology out there. A lot of ways you can pay people. And unfortunately, it is a very complex part of a job as a business. So if it's not working for you and what you have right now, look up payroll partners. Check me out on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you. And if we can help your situation out. All right. So, Kim, we're going to start with a couple of rapid fire questions to start this conversation.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01] This is the short five second answer question. So number one, one word that describe what grief needs most.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02] Expressed.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01] What's something people should never say to someone who is grieving?

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02] I know how you feel.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01] What's one small gesture that can make a big difference?

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02] Remember to say the deceased person's name, right? Do you have a favorite holiday memory of less that you want to share with me? I would love to hear it. Right.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01] Love that. Should managers ask employees how they're doing or simply give them space?

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02] They should ask the employee what they want. You know, do they want to talk about how they're doing or do they want to talk about how they're doing? You don't want to talk about how they're doing.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01] All right. Last one. What's one thing you wish every business leader understood about grief?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02] Grief is a universal experience that you will deal with as a leader or HR person throughout your career. And you can either grab it and learn and do it well, or you can fumble your way through it, you know, and it has repercussions on your organization.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for playing the rapid fire question segment. That was really, really powerful. And we have more questions. We are live. So if you are watching live on LinkedIn and YouTube, throw a question in the chat. It could be about your situation. It could be about advice that you want in something happening right now.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01] And I can't think of a topic that is more connected from an emotional standpoint than grief and how businesses and HR professionals and managers, you can't do this with technology and AI and everything like this is very human connection. And I think that's a question specific. And like you just said, with some of these questions so far, every situation is different.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01] Just because you've gone through grief doesn't mean another person will deal with it the same way, whether it's a man or a woman or any of that. So a lot of factors in there. So let's start with the big picture, Kim. Why is grief such an overlooked conversation in today's workplace?

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02] America as a whole doesn't talk about grief, right? We don't want to acknowledge it. We don't want to talk about it. We don't want to share our feelings. Right. And so we're grief illiterate. And yet one in nine employees in U.S. workplaces will experience the death of a loved one every year. That's 11% of the workforce.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02] So if you have 100 employees on your team, approximately 11 at any given time are grieving the loss of someone they love, which means they're going to be performing at variable levels because they're grieving. Right. They're not 100%. Grief doesn't end when the employee comes back to work and it ends up costing U.S.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] Businesses between 75 and 100 billion dollars a year due to things like absenteeism, presenteeism, right? Work errors because the employee's not concentrating. And 77% of employees wish their managers had training and could support them in their grief.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02] So imagine what that would do to culture of the organization if managers were comfortable supporting their employees or just saying, hey, let's grab a cup of coffee. Yeah. How are you doing?

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. We talk about employee life cycle in the workplace and HR and we, I think we don't talk enough about the life cycle of, of a person's life. And when they're starting a family, when they have aging parents, anything in the middle, when they lose a spouse or they lose a child themselves, you know, I've, I've had too many phone calls.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01] And the person on the other end tells me that so-and-so is no longer with us and they took their own life. And it, it just hits you to the core and you're just like, oh my gosh, like how is this possible? Especially the people that I have had to experience that, that I worked with, that were family, that were friends. And it's just, you know, that's a whole different level of grief, you know?

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01] And, and I know people that have had aging parents that have passed away and it was a cycle of, they experienced taking care of them for six months. They took them to their appointments. They missed work to do that.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_04] So, yeah.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And so I think if any business owner or leader is listening to this, you know, those stats you just talked about, they're going to have to figure out a way to support those, those individuals.

[00:18:04] Mm-hmm .

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, make a small impact or large impact on, on how they can process all that, you know? So.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02] You make a great point when you talk about employee death, whether it's a sudden death or there's a death from an illness, they got cancer or whatever heart disease, they died, you know, they were in a car accident. Yeah. They ended their, you know, their life by, you know, by suicide. As a manager, you're traumatized by that. But then you've got to be able to take and face your team and support them, right?

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02] Because they may have even known the person better than you as a manager because they were co-workers, right? And you've got to help them process that because the whole work environment has changed. The desk is empty, right? There's a lot of things to work through.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02] And we can't just send an email to all staff, right? Yeah. You can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. It feels cold and it feels uncaring. Yeah. And people notice.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:19:09] Mm-hmm .

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01] So we often associate grief with losing a loved one, but grief can come from many life experiences. So what do employers and leaders misunderstand about grief? Just one of the biggest factors there.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02] I think that one, we already talked about grief's unique to the individual, right? Yeah. And the universal experience, everyone's going to experience it usually multiple times in their working career, right? Yeah. That's right. Grief occurs, though, whenever there's a loss that results in some significant change in your lived experience. Yeah. So a child going off to college, you know? In June, when seniors are graduating from high school, parents are grieving.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02] And in September, when they're sending them to college and moving them into campuses, they're grieving. They're happy, but they're still grieving when a child's getting married, right? There's grief. Selling a house, right? Losing a job. Not getting the promotion you thought you were a shoe-in for. There's grief responses to all of those things. Losing a pet. That's a death. But sometimes as managers will underestimate the impact of having a family pet die, a dog, a cat,

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02] something that's significant. So grief occurs with all of those things. Anything that's a loss and change in your routine. And one of the things I think that is challenging is that FMLA specifically doesn't address and doesn't get used for grief. So once the person dies, if you're caring for a loved parent and they die, and you've been using FMLA, you still got three weeks left of FMLA. You can't use it for that now.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02] Because it's not for grief. Unless you're having, you know, a profound physical or emotional reaction where your doctor says you need to be off because of that. Outside of that, planning a funeral, going to a funeral, grieving normally, it can't be used for that. And that's an unfortunate thing. I mean, we allow 12 weeks for pregnancy and bringing a new baby home.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02] And death is just as disruptive as that. Maybe more so.

[00:21:16] Yeah.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yet it's not covered.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:21:19] Mm hmm.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01] So from an HR perspective, how do organizations balance business expectations, productivity and deadlines with giving employees the space they need to grieve?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, first of all, you have to remember, you can't imagine what it's like to lose someone until you lose someone.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I was fortunate. I was probably into my, you know, I lost my grandparents, but they were in their eighties and that's kind of an expected thing. And it was sad, but I mean, it wasn't completely life disrupted. They weren't living with me, that sort of thing. Yeah. So don't underestimate, right. Um, the impact of that.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02] On, you know, the person, but, um, you know, grief leads a big void. It's all consuming and people can't just turn that off when they come to the office. You know, they, they bring it in with them. They're not going to perform like they normally do.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02] And we have to grant grace to that. There's no specific timeframe. You know, some people give them two to three months and they're kind of find the rhythm again. And if they get back into the swing of it, some people three years later are still struggling. Right. There's no specific timeframe. And don't assume because someone's not sad at work or crying that they're done grieving. Right. It just means they're not doing that. Um, and grief is unpredictable.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02] Like I said, you know, so the best thing that we can do is support people who are grieving, you know, by saying, I'm willing to listen to you. How can I support you? What do you need from me?

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And a lot of businesses have a breeding policy, you know, it covers immediate family. It doesn't cover pets. It doesn't cover most of the time, you know, it doesn't cover some of the other family members. So I've seen a variety of treatment policies. I've worked in healthcare and we had to make several modifications to who is deemed immediate

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01] family who is deemed another form of, you know, so you're not getting as much time paid off to go just so, you know, in, in your experience, you know, have there been any creative ways that businesses have supported individuals with like a unique policy or a way to like create as part of their culture in your experience?

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02] Um, you know, I think organizations need to look at their policies.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02] If you have a three to five day bereavement policy and yes, that is the norm.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02] It doesn't mean it's right or it's good or it's enough. Um, but I get there's a cost to business, right? I mean, it does have impact on business. Um, but if you can, um, look at your policy and say, you know, somebody dies today. You probably can't get the funeral arrangements made for two to three days and then the funeral. And now you're three, you're in your three to five days already. Yeah. You haven't even gotten through the funeral yet, you know?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02] And so it's, it's an unrealistic timeframe. So sometimes people will allow employees to take leave without pay. However, that's not always doable for people to take time off without pay. Sometimes other employees can donate PTO time. You know, I'll donate eight hours to them so they can be off. Right. But that gets kind of, you got to monitor that and it's gotta be fair and equitable for all employees. We gotta be, you know? Yeah. Um, so that's, that's hard.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, definitely. So you talked about in the rapid fire about if you should approach someone grieving. Um, so my, my next question is about the leaders and the, and the ones that are uncomfortable talking about death and grief because they don't know really what to say. So what should they say? And, and what should they try to avoid? Um, beyond what you've already kind of shared anything else to bring up?

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02] Um, you know, hearing always, um, triumphs, right? I mean, if you can approach your employee with a, from a place of caring and compassion, even if you stumble over the words, it's okay. Right. I mean, the key things are when you get that phone call, you know, I'm in the ER, my dad just had a heart attack and he died. Don't go. Oh, um, so will you be in tomorrow then or not? And I've had people tell me that's happened.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02] Right. It sounds like, oh, you gotta be kidding. But for the manager who's only thinking I have to have tomorrow shift covered.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02] That's fun of mine. Don't say that. Yeah. Say, you know what, Susan? I'm so sorry. Listen, don't worry about work today. Go be with your family. And HR or I will call you tomorrow and we'll talk about what you need and kind of how we move from here forward. But go be with your family now. It's just a total difference in approach. It's just a total difference in approach. Because what you're saying is you are the most important thing in this moment. And you know what?

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02] Our employees need to know that the business is absolutely important. I get that. And we can't lose sight of that, but we have to take care of the immediate need and that's taking good care of our employee. And they won't forget that those critical conversations that happen at a time when somebody you love deeply has died getting graved in your brain.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02] We won't forget it. Right. Right. So, and then ask, you know, what do you want me to tell your teammates? Can I tell them your dad died? Can I give them the funeral arrangements once you have those made? You know, again, how do you want to come back when you're ready to come back? Do you want to just come back and show up and you want me to ask staff to stay cool and don't bombard you? Or do you want to come in that morning a half hour early and we can invite people to come

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02] into the break room and express their sympathies to you and get that out of the way so you're not dealing with that all day long. Right. Or come in the day before your actual return. You know, find ways to make it about the employee because if you take good care of your employee, when they come back, they're going to be a very loyal, you know, employee and everyone there sees how you're caring for them.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02] And that speaks volume about the culture of the organization.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. And you can't say anymore, leave your problems at the door. It's the times I've heard some managers say that and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I, if you are in their shoes and they're dealing, you're dealing with what they are, you know, are you going to be saying that? You know, like there's just, yeah.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02] Especially when it comes to grief, David, because grief, it's just to the core. It's in everything you do. It's every moment of your life, every thought, every physical feeling, you know, you have trouble taking deep breaths. You have nausea, your GI systems upset, right? You have headaches, you can't sleep, you can't eat, you know? I mean, it affects everything. So of course our employees are not going to be stellar when they come back and you can't

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02] ask them, come on, snap, snap, get back to it because it's just not humanly possible. Right?

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_03] Right.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02] You ask about what to say and, you know, we stumble because we want to say the right thing. And so we, him and ha and then we say something like God never gives you more than you can handle. Right? That's not helpful because I'm not handling this. Right? It feels like that I'm letting God down or whatever. So, you know, there's no perfect answer, but just to say, I know this has got to be so hard and I wish there was a way I could take your pain away. Obviously I can, but how can I best help you? You know, that's genuine.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02] Right. It's sincere.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And you've had significant personal loss yourself. Mm-hmm. You know, spouse, daughter. Yeah. You know, so, so how is your personal journey really shaped the way you help others navigate grief?

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02] Um, is to recognize the individualism of grief, not to make judgments like, oh, they're really not doing well. Or, oh, you know, this person's not being open about their grief or they should be doing this or they should be doing that. No, you know what? I'm sure they're doing the best they can do. And so I understand that as long as the person isn't thinking of self harm, right? That's always a red flag called 911, get them emergency help.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02] But outside of that, whatever their feelings, okay.

[00:30:15] Yep.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02] And just let them feel it. Right. And they just need people to walk alongside them. I love Alan Wolfelt's work. Um, he has a grief specialist and, um, he has this theory on companioning the grieving, right? You don't stand behind them and push them. And you don't walk in front of them and pull them along. You walk beside them at their pace and listen and just say, I'm willing to be in this yuck, right? In this, this difficult time with you.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I know when we talk workplace, you know, a lot of different work environments, you can be a hard nose, blue collar, you know, assembly line, you know, working in the auto industry, being a driver out on the highway, whatever you can work in offices, all kinds of different things. But caring is always the right thing, you know, and to say that individually to a person, grab a cup of coffee with them, ask them to meet you 20 minutes early before work.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02] Whatever. But let them know you care. Send a card to their home address versus an email. Don't just say, I'm so sorry to hear your mom died, right? Or your daughter died or your husband died.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02] Send a card to their home, but not that first two weeks. Do it on week three or week four when everybody else's cards have been sent and it's done.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02] The person begins to think no one remembers.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And that's kind of what happens. We all get back into the routine of work. Three months in, everybody's just plugging along and we're back to normal. Nobody thinks about, gosh, Susan's still adjusting to her husband's death.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_04] Mm hmm.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02] You know, and so to periodically just check in. Hey, I know you're kind of got back into the groove now, but I know it's not done. Right. I know that this is still you're still grieving. How are you really doing? Yeah.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01] I know that this is a good thing. Yeah.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01] So what in your experience have you seen from a divorce standpoint versus a loss of somebody? Yeah. How have you given advice to individuals to help navigate through that if it's more divorce, separation?

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Um, you know, don't assume that the grief is less because it's divorce.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Because, well, the person's still alive. At least they didn't die.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like my husband died. I was 45. He was 49. He died of colon cancer.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_03] Mm hmm.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02] He was very healthy. He wanted to live. We planned to grow old together. Right. We were just on the verge of being empty nesters and he died. And so I felt like, you know, things just changed, but I knew he didn't want to leave me. Right. We loved each other immensely. When you have a divorce, not only is the relationship gone, it's died. The relationships died.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02] But a lot of times there's anger, there's resentment, there's bitterness over child support or custody issues and stuff. So sometimes I think I've never been divorced, but I think that the divorce grief can be even more escalated because a lot of other emotions that come with it.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02] No, I mean, people could be angry if someone dies by suicide. I get it. Yes. That can all still be part of it. But in divorce, I've seen people assume, well, this is what you wanted. Right. Didn't you want a divorce? Well, yeah, I wanted a divorce. Right. Maybe he was having an affair. She was having an affair, but I'm still very hurtful and I'm angry. Right. Right.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01] Definitely.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02] Don't minimize it.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been through three. I've been through two as a son and I've been through one as a husband and I've lost my father. I've lost, you know, family members. My grandpa was going to be 99 and he passed away in July. And so my family going through the holidays, it's going to be different. You know, you're not going to have the same people together.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01] And so, you know, you, you, you have to, I think, embrace the seasons of, of life and really just understand that people are going to go through something different than you, even though it was a, you know, family member, grandparent, spouse, whatever. But like, not everyone processes that differently and it could take years.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, my, my aunt, you know, lost a son and it was, you know, 10 years ago. Um, maybe not 10 years yet, but it's been a while and like, like, it's just incredible to, to think that, you know, you raise kids thinking that they're going to go on and, you know, have a career and have a family and give you grandkids and all this. And it's just not, it's not the, it's not the path.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01] It's not the plan, uh, that, that works that way. And so it's just, you know, when, when you have to go through that or know someone to go through that, it's, um, it's just very, for a business, how you handle those situations, like you said before.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, that, that goes so far for, for someone will remember that they'll remember when you gave them a raise and when they gave a bonus and, you know, promotion, but how you handle. A grief situation for that individual. I think that is so critical.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01] And I mean, you just, that's something that people will remember as they are employed by you, you know, it's so, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. I mean, it's tough for everybody.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02] Um, made a good point when you said you've been through divorce three times, once as a husband, but twice as a son, it's important to recognize we think divorce, we think spouse, right? Your former spouse, those two people are grieving, but you got to remember your employee might be the son or a daughter of, of, you know, a couple going through divorce and they too will have grief. So thank you for mentioning that.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So if you could challenge HR professionals and business leaders to change just one thing about how they approach grief in the workplace, what would it be?

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02] To be courageous and learn about grief. Don't be afraid of it. You know, get some basic training. And I would say offering a lunch and learn or something like that for employees, you know, on their lunch break. So, you know, so that way you don't have to necessarily pay them to come in for this, but you offer it. We're going to offer this for anyone who wants to come in and learn how to support your grieving friends and family and your coworkers, right?

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02] Because if we can get the whole culture involved, right? The whole organization, not just managers and HR, but their teammates to know how to be with them in their grief, right? That's a real win. And then, you know, certainly train your leaders. Look at your policies, right? Again, that bereavement leave. You know, what are you offering? Can you offer? Maybe you can't give them more time off. But let's say someone just becomes a single parent and they've got young kids.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02] I lead a young widows group for widows under 50. And a lot of our moms in that group have kids that are one, three, five, right? Now they're suddenly single parents juggling work and kids. And like some of them have had to change jobs because they can't get to work at seven, right? They can't get the kids to daycare until 630. So can you adjust their hours and let them work nine to six at night as opposed, right?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, to adjust, can you be flexible some way so that you keep a trained, valuable employee? You don't have to replace them. They feel supported. Their peers see them being supported. I mean, all around organizationally, again, culturally it wins. And studies have shown that employees who are supported specifically during grieving situations are retained longer and have better employee satisfaction scores. And culturally, the organization does better.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, definitely. So obviously, if you're looking at your culture and you're looking at how you're handling things in 2026 and beyond with everything changing in the workplace, technology. And I think Kim brings up a lot of good points for individuals that are in an HR functioning position and what your impact can be for individuals grieving and how you can help support them. And so you can help them in the business.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01] So everyone can play a part in that. And like you said, walk with them through that process and that season of life and grieving and trauma. And, you know, just don't try to push them back into the job that they had before they lost somebody. And, you know, they're going to be loyal to you. So this has been phenomenal. I really appreciate you coming on, Kim.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01] This is, you know, one of those topics that I feel like we don't talk enough about, like you said. And so I think it was a great time of the year to have it. And, you know, any other advice that you would give businesses as you are going into the holiday season? Just things to point out or things to mention to those individuals.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I have a little two-page downloadable page on my website. I will send that to you, the link to you, David, and you can put that out as well. But it's things that may help your employee navigate the holidays, okay? It's how to approach the holidays, whether it's decorating at home or buying gifts or the Thanksgiving Day meal. And things to kind of like the hurdles that we encounter when we're grieving during the holidays.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02] An employer who anticipates their employee is going to be struggling over the holidays and says, here, here's something that might help you face these first holidays since your mom died. I mean, I think that would be golden. And, I mean, I would have appreciated that, right?

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02] You know, so holidays are tough. Your employee is going to stumble during the holidays. You just need to anticipate it. And we can't cheer people up. I mean, you know, oh, come on, you know, cheer up. You still have your dad. No. Right? I mean, again, people don't know what to say. So they say things that end up being hurtful.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02] So, again, be compassionate and just listen. Listen more than we talk, right?

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01] Listen more than we talk. So my hope path is where you can find everything from Kim. And you've written a few books, children's books, correct, on grieving and help about that.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02] The first one I wrote was for my grandson after my daughter died. And he was three years old. So he asked me, what cloud is my mommy in? Because someone told him heaven was in the clouds. And so that was the title of the first book. And it just takes the kids through the whole first year of grief. You know, mom or dad's birthday, grandma or grandpa's birthday, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Christmas, you know, all of those things. Child's birthday.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02] And in the back of the book is lots of ideas on how to memorialize the person, you know, in a healthy way that allows not just the child to talk about the grief, but their parents and child or grandparents to talk about grief. You know, and there's something beautiful about that when we can just be honest and share the hurt because then we can also share the love and the memories.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's incredible. And I know your books have made an impact on people that have gone through grief. And so you just look at something like a book and what someone is experiencing and how you can play a role in that and impact in a positive way. So, you know, certainly losing family members and having books to help others, I think is awesome. So I think what you're doing is great.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's so meaningful. I think anyone that's listening to this that also is in the podcast community, you know, contact Kim, look her up on LinkedIn. You're very active on LinkedIn. You've done some TEDx talks that we'll have in the summary notes as well for someone to tune in there. So, Kim, this has been great. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing everything you did.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02] Well, thank you for the opportunity. And if you ever need a speaker keynote or whatever, I'm happy to come to businesses or do Zoom calls or whatever you might need to help your team feel more comfortable in dealing with grief. And one last comment with regards to employees. Note the death date of the person who dies, right? Send them a card as the first anniversary of the death approaches again at their home. And because they'll be amazed that you remembered that and cared enough to do that.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02] And it costs to the cost of a stamp and a card, right?

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02] It's valuable.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that is great advice. Thank you very much. All right. Well, thanks, Kim. This has been great. I hope everybody listening has a great rest of your day that you learned from Kim and can apply that back to your situation. And I wish you all the best, Kim. Let's keep in touch.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_04] All right.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01] If there's anything I can do to help and support you, let me know. But I hope you have a great rest of your day and hope everyone else has a great day. And we'll talk to everyone soon. We'll be back in a couple weeks for a brand new episode and brand new topic. So keep it unfiltered, authentic. And this is what we're doing here. So thanks, Kim. Appreciate it.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_02] Take care.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01] Take care, everybody.