Ep 86: What Every Generation Gets Wrong About Love (with Robin Hamilton)

[00:00:02] Never feel like different generations just don't get each other? Certified coach, licensed therapist, and speaker Tess Brigham tackles the generational challenges shaping our personal and professional lives on The Gen Mess with Tess. Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Gen Mess with Tess, where we're not just fixing the mess, we're figuring out how to live in it. I'm your host, Tess Brigham. So let's start making sense of the mess together.

[00:00:27] And before we dive into today's guest, I'm excited to announce that I'm adding a weekly newsletter called Dear Gen Mess as a companion to each episode. It's a place where I can share with you a little behind the scenes about the guests and the topics of the podcast and all with links to resources to help you get the most out of every episode. So if you love this show and you want to be part of the Dear Gen Mess community, go to my website, TessBrigham.com backslash podcast. Thank you.

[00:00:53] All right, so let's get into it. My guest today spends her days helping people understand why they keep ending up in the same relationship pattern, even when they swear this time will be different. Robin Hamilton is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder of Dreams Reimagined Mental Health Therapy and Consulting Services. And she spent over 20 years working with attachment wounds, trauma, and the stories people don't even realize they're carrying into love.

[00:01:19] Today, we're taking her lens and pointing it at something I think about constantly, which is what's actually happening underneath dating and relationships for especially for young adults now. So attachment wounds, self-esteem, unresolved trauma, this stuff nobody never explained it to you before you were looking for love. Robin, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:42] All right. So you, and I always say this, that therapists, we rarely start being therapists. Like there's always another career, which I think actually, you know, and when I was in grad school, I don't know if you found that too, that most people were in their late 20s, early 30s. There were some outliers, but it was people who had been in the working world for a period of time.

[00:02:08] And I know that from reading about you, that you started in human services. Right. And then you have a, you went through, you were a journalist. I had a master's degree in journalism. In journalism. Okay. Yes. And then you landed in clinical psychology. So I would love to hear a little bit of your origin story. Like how did you get here?

[00:02:29] So, you know, I found that a lot of people had like growing up would come to me for advice and I would, I couldn't understand it. And I didn't know it was a gift back then. Right. So, you know, they would come to me for advice and stuff. And so I felt like, you know, I produced this show on my own called Intimately Delightful Discussions or whatever. And I wrote a book or whatever, because I wanted to help couples. And that started because I was married once. Right.

[00:02:56] And that marriage, I loved him with every fiber of my being, but it didn't work out. And that's where the biggest pain for me came from. So that's where this all got birthed. The, what I just said about the intimate life and stuff like that. So I wrote the book, but it was like just a cookbook for couples. But the credentialing on the back wasn't, it was more, I didn't want to be self-proclaimed. It was more school of hard knocks. So I wanted to get a little bit more. Okay. Now she's credentialed. She knows she's talking about.

[00:03:26] So that's how I ended up getting the second master's in marriage therapy because I seen what happened there and the things that I missed and didn't see. But you know, you're young, you don't know what you don't know. Right. So that's where that all came from. So now it's like, okay, from my pain, I'm helping with the pain that I had. I'm helping other people like try to circumnavigate that kind of stuff because you need to know who you are before you can go forward in a relationship that's healthy. So that's where that all came from.

[00:03:56] Yeah. So it's so funny. You bring something up. I'm going to, I'm diving right into it. So you bring something up that I talked about with my, with my own clients, which is I've been married almost 23 years. And I can, yeah. And so, but the thing is, the thing is, and yeah, there, there's some congratulations, but I also want to say that there's some things that now and in my fifties, a million years later, I can look back on in when I met my husband going, oh, okay.

[00:04:23] We've been able to last like it worked because he's like this and like this and like this. And that's the part that is so hard because I didn't know what to look for. I met my husband when I was 28. I had done some work on myself. I was going, I was starting grad school and some of these other things, but I don't know. And I think that's the part that's really hard. People feel such sadness and disappointment around their marriages ending. And it's like, sometimes I feel like it's like a lottery. Like some people draw the right ticket and some people don't.

[00:04:53] And, and so I don't know what you, what you see or what your, what your thoughts are about that. So when I did that book and show and all that stuff, right. My goal with that was to keep love alive. Right. So whatever brought us together in the first place has to be maintained throughout because we get so complacent. We get so like take each other for granted that we forget that in the beginning, we used to laugh together. We used to take walks or do whatever, but now as time passed, we stopped doing those things.

[00:05:23] And so it'll can cause you to grow apart. So whatever got you together in the first place has to be maintained throughout in order to keep that love alive. You know what I mean? So it stops that. I don't know who you are. I'm just like, you know, I thought I knew you, you know, because we, we put what we did in the beginning on the shelf. And we can't do that. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, what you're really speaking to is this idea of, you know, we are constantly evolving.

[00:05:52] So you cannot really truly wait until you're done cooking to meet somebody, but that you should have a better sense of who you are, what's going on. And I, for me personally, I had dated a lot of bad boys and had to work through that issue, those things, and met my husband who was far from that. And almost at first I was like, oh, I don't know. Like this is foreign. I don't know. But looking back, I was like, oh, okay. Got it.

[00:06:21] You know, I, because we meshed in these ways or you're supportive in these ways, or I'm like this, this is how we've made it this far. Not saying that we haven't worked at it, but I do think that sometimes there is a little bit of exactly what you're saying, which is you have to know yourself, but you too have to also be growing in the same direction. Right.

[00:06:41] Because there are a lot of choices and decisions that are made along the way that are really about how you want to live your life. Right. Right. People change. Yeah. We don't really take that into consideration. We just think in the beginning, everything is going to remain the same. No. How are we changing? Like maybe I used to like dogs. Now all of a sudden I don't. We got together because we met in dog park. Now I don't like dogs anymore.

[00:07:09] So those things have to be discussed, but if we don't say anything now, here comes resentment because, oh my God, he wants me to go with this dog and I can't stand dogs anymore. And so that's how that stuff builds. We always have to have a conversation. If we're changing, we're growing. So we always have to talk about it. And so we are always on the same page. And if we're not, we have to bridge that. If we're on different, how do I bridge the fact that you still like dogs and I don't, and I used to. So how do we bridge that where we can still continue to grow as one?

[00:07:39] Yeah. You know what I mean? So I feel like a lot of people, they stop communicating. They just internalize a lot of things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know. So you were trained in, so your methods are Gottman method and EFT. And for people who have never heard those terms before, can you describe both and how it, I mean, Gottman obviously is very well known. People might have heard his name. Yes, yes.

[00:08:06] So one of the things I love about Gottman is when we get in touch with our love languages. That's like my favorite thing because a lot of people will say, okay, I like to be held. But the other person doesn't know that. That's that person's love language, you know, physical touch, right? But the other person might love acts of service. But if we don't know that, then I'm mad at him because he never touches me. Well, he doesn't know that because you tell him that, you know what I mean?

[00:08:34] And then like I teach them about healthy conflict and, you know, they learn about stonewalling and, you know, conflict and stuff like that. They don't know what they don't know. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mostly focused therapy. So if you're having a conflict that's ongoing, let's, let's role play. Let's see what's going on here.

[00:09:02] And so I'll have them role play in front of me, like a typical argument and let's see what's really going on here. And then when I see it like that, because I'm very visual, when you see it, then it's like, oh, then you start to see yourself. It's like holding up a mirror. Now I can see where I am lending to the dysfunction and whatever is going on in this relationship. So I really like those two dynamics, but it just depends on, you know, if the person's, the couple, if it's high conflict, then I have to switch up. Okay. So what's really going on? What's that underlying thing?

[00:09:31] Because I really like them to be in individual therapy first or simultaneously, because if you're a, let's use this, a yeller, a screamer, right? And this is the problem, the source of contention in your relationship. Okay. Well, we can't fix this in marital counseling. You have to go to individual to find out why you're screaming. Where did this come from? And then together and bridge that. So, yeah, that's why I like using Gottman and EFT, especially. Yeah.

[00:10:01] So, because I, you know, I was reading on your website, I believe, where you're talking about, you know, I don't play referee. Right. And that is a big, I always tell people, I think one of the hardest parts about working with a couple is you do feel like you're sort of put in that role. It's hard not to feel like you are a referee. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:51] And so we're going to get to the bottom of it because I'm not here to fix anybody. I'm a relationship builder. Like, I'm mending your relationship, not focusing so much on the problem. Like, let's just get to why you guys are in this way or not communicating in the way that you are. So I feel like my genuineness and my honesty with them, it really is what they want. They want to hear the hard truth. And I'm not thinking about it. It's just that I can't turn to page 34 in this book and be like, this is what you need to do. No.

[00:11:21] This is what's happening here. This is the way I see it. How can we fix it? Mm-hmm. So you mentioned that a lot of the couples that come to see you, they're feeling hopeless, right? Because they've had the same fight over and over and over again. So what have you found?

[00:11:50] What's usually sitting underneath that fight that people can't see? Well, I'll be like, well, what's been the common theme here? And when wasn't this a problem, right? What happened to now it became a problem? And what keeps perpetuating that's making it an ongoing problem for you guys? And so they'll tell me and then we'll have to come up with ways to, okay, how do we change that?

[00:12:17] If it's not a we thing and it's an I thing, then what do we have to do individually to maybe look at that other person's perspective? Or, you know, come out of self. Mm-hmm. Consider how the other person might be feeling. Because sometimes a lot of people will be like, I'm not the problem. They are. Yes. Fix them and then we'll be good. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. Oh, yeah. So I have them. Yeah, I'm sorry. I just have them really look into self. Yeah. No, I was just saying.

[00:12:47] And no one ever comes out that, ever comes out and says that explicitly. But there is that tone sometimes where you're really like, I don't know. Because in relationships, right, it's two people. So even if you can say, yeah, it's mainly this person, there's some role that the other person is playing. Absolutely. You're creating the dynamic. So from my experience, what I see a lot of that I think gets a lot of people stuck.

[00:13:16] And I see this both in romantic relationships and friendships and even at work where it's that tit for tat. What are they going to do? I know I have these problems. What are they doing? Right. And I often say that, you know, don't worry so much about what they're doing or not doing. Actually, you got to worry about what you're doing. And if you focus on you and changing your behaviors, it will change this dynamic. Sure. You know, I'll have clients.

[00:13:44] Sometimes I say, well, do something nice for your partner every single day this week. Don't tell them. Very small. Like, brought them a cup of coffee. Bought you this candle. Like, really simple. And sure enough, every single time they're like, yeah, my spouse is a lot nicer to me. And, you know, it seemed to be a lot more pleasant. I'm like, there you go. And so you do have a role in all of this as well. But I'm not quite sure. What have you found? Do you see that a lot too? That kind of like that tip for tat.

[00:14:13] Like, I'm not going to change until they change. Yes. And I always tell them, I'm like, the only way you're going to change another person is by changing yourself. Right. You cannot change another person. When you change yourself, that's when you start to get that reciprocity that you're talking about. So, okay, let me do something different. This person, like we talked about Gottman, they like acts of service. Well, let me do something kind for them. That other person's going to notice it and they're going to be like, oh, wow. So they're going to respond accordingly and it's going to be favorable for the person who

[00:14:43] keeps doing those nice things. And so that's where you get that reciprocity. So now you start to work together like a well-oiled machine because you see the other person and it's no longer tit for tat. I'm doing this because I love this person. I know this is what they want. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how often people that for a lot of people, we think we're unconditional, but we aren't. We're not as unconditional as we think we are.

[00:15:12] And that's something that I often see at these impasses with clients. And I love the way you just said this of the only way to change someone else is to change yourself, right? Because you're going to then change your relationship with them and how you see them. And I think that's the other part that's really scary, right? Because you don't know what's on the other side of that. Right. Right. Right. And that's where that individual therapy comes into play because now you can bounce things off of your individual therapist and be like, I did this and it's scary or whatever you might be feeling.

[00:15:42] And then that person will help you now come with your marital therapist and be like, okay, this is what you need to do. So it's less scary because yeah, we can do marital therapy and have a little bit of individual therapy going on inside that, but we're not really dealing with that person like a real individual therapist would do. If that makes sense. You know what I mean? So a person has trouble communicating and they come to me as a couples therapist and say, okay, we can't communicate.

[00:16:10] Maybe when this other person who has a problem communicating was younger, maybe mom and dad told them to be quiet all the time. I don't want to hear what you have to say. So now it's feels over into adulthood and they're trying to like, oh my God, I can't, I can't. But the individual therapist would get to the bottom of why you communicate and help them. And now you can come to the marital therapy and be like, okay, I'm using these tools and these skills and these techniques to help. And that other person is going to recognize it and be like, wow. And then that's where you get that reciprocity. Yeah.

[00:16:40] So let's talk about young adults because I've been also working for 20 years, just like you. So you've seen, right? Like, I don't know. I remember when millennials showed up. I was like, oh, these millennials. You're right. Let's talk about these millennials. I own a couple of those. And then Gen Z shows up. So what the stories that we're hearing in the news constantly about young people is they're not dating. They're, you know, they don't want to be in relationships. They can't figure it out. What do you see?

[00:17:09] I feel like in the beginning, you know, relationships grew from proximity, patience and community. Right. Now we've got technology, convenience and choice. So they're not really looking in the person's eyes. They're on social media. And I know that whenever COVID hit, that's when I had an influx of people who had social anxiety. They were afraid of people. They didn't want to talk to people.

[00:17:36] And I just feel like, you know, technology, we have to deal with it because that's our new normal right now. But I feel like we're getting away from this eye to eye contact and really getting out and socializing and, you know, having fun with people. So, you know, that's what I feel like this generation is just they're wrapped up in these phones and the computers and, you know, and time to meet face to face. They're scared. Their knees are knocking, you know.

[00:18:04] So what and have you had any of these kinds of clients? What would you say to them? Yes, I have had these clients and I say take small steps. Challenge yourself. Face your fears, right? So whatever it is that you're afraid of, let's say you don't want to talk to somebody, take a small step. Just go into a public place maybe and say hi to five people or one person. And then as it gets easier, then add to that number. And the more you do it, the easier it gets.

[00:18:33] So you definitely have to challenge yourself in that area of fear. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, what I, this first, when I started working with millennials, what I saw was that the apps, you know, it streamlined some things, but it also exactly what you're saying. Because the thing is once upon a time, right? It was just whoever was in your community, who went to your church, who lived next door, who your aunt knew from this, this, this.

[00:18:59] And so there was like this idea of, well, this is what's available to me. Right. Versus online now. It's like, well, there's someone in Australia. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe they're better than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bigger pool. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I also think there's always that belief that there's something better out there, right? That there's, you know, and, and that gets people in that analysis paralysis place. Sure.

[00:19:26] And then they don't take into consideration too, is this, when you get outside of your normal, then you don't understand these people's background. You don't know their cultural, you know, differences and limitations and stuff like that. So, I mean, it could be fun and exciting, but at the same time, you still have to be careful. Even if in the smaller community is what I'm saying, like technology. Yeah. You can meet somebody across the world, but you just don't know them. You don't know their family in the background. And so that can be, it's a challenge all in itself, you know?

[00:19:56] Yeah. Are you finding that your clients are moving towards trying to meet people in real life? That seems to be a bit of a trend now where people are like, I'm putting the phone down, I'm not doing it. I need to meet someone in real life. Do you find that your clients are moving towards that or is there still that? There's still that I want to be on because it's safe behind the phone. It's safe for them and they find it to be safe because they can find a community that identifies with whatever they identify with.

[00:20:23] And I mean, so I feel like it might be a combination of both because once they find that community, then we can jump out of the computer and maybe go somewhere public where we can now and get together because I feel comfortable now, you know? So it's, it's, you know, they got to be careful. I did an interview with Good Morning America this morning and it was talking about the catfishing. So people are, you know, talking to AI and it's not really a person, you know?

[00:20:52] So you have to like really rely less on the AI and the computer and the phone in the beginning. That's fine, but come out of that and let's meet in public. Let's see if we can, you know, move forward because we can hide behind a computer all day long. I'm sure you've heard of people who've been in relationships with somebody for years and they never met. Oh yeah. Yes. And so what's the fear there? I've not had a client like that, but what's the fear there? Because it's safe behind that phone or whatever.

[00:21:21] It might be, why haven't you guys met? So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it keeps the fantasy alive, right? Yeah, sure. Like that's the, that's the, and I could imagine someone maybe who has been hurt so often, right? Had that level of disappointment going in, but this is their way, right? Of protecting themselves. But really it's keeping them stuck. Sure. Sure.

[00:21:45] So, so let's talk a little bit about the, the, and I don't know if you've had this with clients or not. I have not, but, um, have you with using AI people who have these, you know, AI relationships? Mm-hmm. Um, I see them and I, you might have a different take. I really see them. It's like, it's the same kind of relationship that we have with our pets. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Where it's like, you get to control it.

[00:22:13] The, the, they don't really have a say in anything. Um, and there's, they will show up for you and be unconditional. Right. And I think what's so dangerous about that, like people are talking about how, you know, it's so dangerous and, and it's dangerous for many different reasons. But the bigger, the biggest one is, is that it keeps people from actually living and actually doing the things that they need to do.

[00:22:40] So as much as they feel like they're keeping themselves safe, they're not. They're not. They're keeping themselves stuck. And, and it's, I feel like it has a lot to do with the self-esteem and, you know, and yourself, right? Right. Because I feel like as humans, we're designed to, uh, imagine. And we want to go out and explore those imaginations. But now since technology has showed up, it gives us a safe little box to hide behind.

[00:23:10] Mm-hmm. You know, we can imagine, we can be whoever we want behind that, that screen or the phone or whatever. You know what I mean? So I feel like if, if people would just, it's just loaded for me to say that because everybody has their own backstories, but challenge themselves. I guess that's the best way to, just challenge yourself to do something different. Do something that you never do. And this is a funny thing.

[00:23:35] I learned from a training about this challenge, do something that you've never done. You know, some of my colleagues, they were like, okay, well, I'm just going to lay down on the street in the middle of the crowd. Mm-hmm. Just, just because they would never do that. Because you don't want to prescribe something to a client that you would never do. Oh, yeah. So I'm on a cruise ship and they were, nobody was in the dance floor dancing. Nobody was even in there. But the DJ, what did I do? I went in there for 45 minutes and I danced. And I was like, oh my God.

[00:24:05] People are walking by and I'm waving, you know what I mean? But it felt good because I would never do that. So it builds your self-esteem and it challenges you to come out of your comfort zone. Mm-hmm. And if people would really take time to really dig inside, say, okay, what's driving this fear? If I want X, Y, and Z, what's stopping me? Mm-hmm. What can I do differently to get to, you know, that thing that I long for? Yeah. Well, so, and you talk a lot in your work about attachment and attachment wounds.

[00:24:32] So what are, where do you see the attachment wounds showing up for young adults? Maybe who have had, who have had long-term relationships and maybe haven't. Well, I feel like they start to recreate those patterns that they're used to. Like, for instance, if a person's parents didn't give them the love that they need or whatever the case might be, so they have like a dismissive or void in attachment style or something like that, then they hide. Mm-hmm. So they'll give you that push-pull dynamic.

[00:25:01] So it becomes so ingrained in their being that they come into relationships not really realizing that they're doing that still. I love you. I want this love. I'm going to come a little close. Oh, this feels uncomfortable. So let me pull back. Mm-hmm. Right?

[00:25:24] So once, you know, they do understand that this is what's going on, okay, what happened in my childhood that made me begin to do this? And then you start to peel off those layers and then the real person starts to emerge and then you start to have that healthy relationship pattern dynamic that they're looking for. But they don't know what they don't know. Yeah. And that's the other part of it that's so hard is that you don't know what you don't know. Yeah.

[00:25:50] And so, and then there's that chicken and the egg thing a little bit of if you're not getting into relationships, then how do you practice some of these things and do these things? But yeah, the relationships trigger all these, you know, make you feel this certain way. It's hard. It's hard when you get in there to realize. Yeah, we're in a toxic relationship now. Well, why is it toxic? Well, because you don't know that you have these attachment injuries. You know what I mean? So it's like there's a lot of moving parts.

[00:26:19] Yeah, no, absolutely. So let's talk, I want to talk a little bit about low self-esteem. So how does low self-esteem actually operate inside a relationship? Like what does it look like in real time? If you have an example. I feel like when people have low self-esteem, they also don't know their standards, right? So somebody who is a high vibrational functioning person wouldn't take verbal abuse from somebody.

[00:26:47] So maybe somebody with low self-esteem, maybe they heard their mother or father or somebody speaking down to them and they think that's, you know, we're to the, not so much to the spouses, but to the child or whoever. Now they grow up thinking that's the way it should be. I spoke out and said to mom, dad, why are you talking to me like this? I might've got smacked or something like that. So now my self-esteem is so small. So now I'm pulling in a person who's going to talk to down to me. I don't know my standards because my self-esteem is so low.

[00:27:17] I'm going to let you do that because that's what I've learned. Yeah. You know, low self-esteem is, it's, it's again, some people, I, do you know that you have low self-esteem? I guess you do, or maybe you think that's just normal. It's just, like I said, there's a lot of moving parts to it, but I feel like the pattern, it perpetuates itself because it's a lot of behavior.

[00:27:42] And so that's why those patterns start to, you know, continue because we don't know our self-worth. We don't, we don't set our own standards and love ourselves because you can't expect somebody to love you if you don't love yourself. Yeah. It's, it's interesting that I've found over the years with self-esteem is that you, you may have someone that you meet, a client who is doing really well, successful, confident person, out about doing that in a relationship.

[00:28:07] And then it really comes down to like, oh wait, this is a self-esteem issue. Like, because I think people see that confidence and assume how could you have low self-esteem? Right. But, you know, when client, I'm sure you've had this work when clients download, you're like, oh my God, this is all in your head. Right. Yeah. Just all of these. So you've made up a story in your mind. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. No, no, no. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but that's, that's exactly it. It's like, like you just said, they're successful or whatever the case might be.

[00:28:37] But underneath that, they might think I'm overweight or I'm unattractive or whatever the case might be. But we're looking at them like, that's not true. You know, I'm not sure what you're seeing, but that is not true. And so maybe they never got validated. Maybe they're looking for validation. You know, so that's what I'm saying. So knowing your standards and knowing who you are, you could say to yourself, well, you know, nobody ever told me that I was beautiful. That's why I can't see that I am. You know, that kind of stuff.

[00:29:05] And then once you start to unpeel all of that, then your standards start to get higher and be like, you know what? I am beautiful. Self-affirm. I am beautiful. I'm not taking that from you. Yeah. I think one of the hardest parts about changing, especially when it comes to relationships, is having to let go of either a person or an idea of a person that you really dug into, right?

[00:29:35] And I don't know what you find. But that to me is, I think, because yes, you've, sometimes the best thing for you is to let someone go. Right. And to not have a relationship with them at all. And that can be incredibly painful to even think about. Sure. And the underlying barrier there is fear. You know, maybe that person was making you feel safe. So if I let them go, I'm not going to feel safe anymore.

[00:30:02] But I'm going to take the verbal abuse from them because I felt safe. Unbeknownst to the person who feels that way, well, I can create safety in my own self. So when you let go of those things that don't serve your higher, better good, if you let it go, then you're going to open the door to something that could. And that goes back to if I love myself first, then the love that I'm looking for is going to come to me naturally because the blinders come off. So now you know what you're not going to accept and what you're not.

[00:30:30] Okay, maybe I needed safety and I don't have it for a minute because I let this person go. But I'm going to get it in a better way. A better way. Because I love myself first. You know. And it is scary and it is hard. It is. Because not only do you have an attachment to that person and you have that love there. But yes, whatever the fantasy is or whatever you've created in your mind, it's hard to let that go. It's like a dream dying. Yes. Sure. Sure.

[00:30:59] And a lot of people don't realize that they're not defined by another human being. It's hard to look inward. I mean, again, it goes back to what was your childhood like? What was your upbringing like? Why do you feel this way? And just to tell an adult now, all of a sudden, no, just love yourself. It's not that easy. Yeah. They need what they need. And sometimes, you know, they can let go and sometimes they can't because letting go. Okay. Now I'm alone.

[00:31:28] So now here comes another problem. I'm lonely. I don't know how to fix this. So that's what I'm saying. So that's why they probably stay with that individual. Because if I let them go, then a whole bunch of other stuff is going to come flooding in if I let it go. So you guys, they're going to sit here and say a lot of things. But that doesn't mean that it's easy for somebody to just be like, okay, you're right. Let me try this. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:31:53] No, it's hard and it's lifelong not to make people like want to pull their hair out. But it is. I just know for myself, I'm in my early 50s and I'm constantly amazed by the things I'm learning about myself. Right. At this age. After all the work that I've done and the work that I do, I was like, oh, God. I'm unpeeling things here. Right. So you think you're at the end. No, you're not. No. I'm 57. So I feel like we're always. It's evolving.

[00:32:22] And it's like, you know, I went to another training in Costa Rica. It was on. What was we doing there? Tron or something like that. And so we did different role plays, all of us. And I was like, they were like, do you want to be the therapist or do you want to be the client? I said, I'll be the client. And lo and behold, I didn't know I had an issue still. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, I didn't know I was still carrying that. So that's what I'm saying. It's like you learn yourself every day. We just don't know what we don't know. And so these types of conversations and just people, you know,

[00:32:51] thinking, okay, let me just talk about it. You never know what's going to come up in conversation. They will open the door to something that you might have forgot. It was lying dormant. Yeah. Yeah. So if someone's listening to this interview and they're like, okay, this is me. I'm dragging unresolved trauma into every relationship. I don't know. You know, what is usually the first sign? How would someone know that they've been doing that? Because you can feel it. I call it ick. Like the inside, it's an icky feeling.

[00:33:19] And it's like, why did I say that? Why did I do that? Because we know ourselves better than anybody. You know what I mean? Like you can say something that's not so nice. And like, why did I be so mean to that person? Why did I say that? And that's when you start to look inward. And then you really sit down with yourself and say, okay, I want to change this behavior. And if you have a higher power or something that you believe in, like tap into that and be like, you know, try to really do some inward working on yourself.

[00:33:47] Because we know when we're icky. We know that. We know that. So. Yeah. What do you find is, do you, I, I mean, it's hard to say exactly like, oh, this is the biggest issue that couples struggle with. That, right, Gottman talks about the four horsemen and the defensiveness and the stonewalling and all of that.

[00:34:14] I, I also think, I really think that what people say and the words have such a huge impact. And I often, right, I'm sure you've had a client where they say really awful things. They're not, they're not a terrible person. They say awful things. And then it's like, oh, sorry. Like, I hate you. Sorry. And, and for me, I think, I personally think that's so destructive because the words can never be taken back. Right. Right.

[00:34:44] And they will stay there with that person. And just, you know. Yeah. My analogy is like a block of cheese. Okay. A whole block of cheese. And every time somebody does something like that or says that, you're chipping away at this block of cheese. Because the block of cheese represents the love that I have for you. Right. And every time you say something like that, you're chipping off at this block until it comes down to nothing. Because now this person's like, well, you're not, you don't love me no more. You're, you're not. Because you changed me. Yeah. The block of cheese is gone.

[00:35:14] Because you can't take those words back. You can't say, I hate you or say all this nasty stuff and then come with a box of candy the next. It doesn't work like that. You don't have to really be careful of what they say because our, our, our tongue is sharper than a two-edged sword. And we don't realize that. You know what I mean? We don't realize that. And you can't take those words back. Even though you said it and said, I'm sorry, that person in the back of their mind is not going to unhear that. Yeah. Well, it's also a little bit like if you talk about the block of cheese, right?

[00:35:42] You've just whacked a big block of cheese and then people, someone comes along and go, okay, these flowers should do it. Right. Or these, and it's like, no, maybe a little bit like a, like a shred of cheese can be put back in there, but not, not, I don't know how many flowers you have to give.

[00:35:56] I mean, I know there's, there's research done where it's like, there's a five to one ratio between, you know, but yeah, I think people underestimate how much those words affect people and then overestimate how I'm sorry, land. Right. Right. And so if they want to put the cheese back together, that other person is going to have to see change in the behavior of the person who's throwing those, those daggers and killing the cheese.

[00:36:24] Cause they're going to be like, months have passed and this person hasn't said anything mean to me. Now years have passed. And so that cheese starts to come back together because they notice the person is like, wow, I have really been mean to her or him. I need to stop talking like that. And so when they begin to change, then things start to, that's that reciprocity that I talked about. The cheese block is coming back together. The other person notices it. So now their dynamic relationally is changing because the situation is different because this person is not attacking me verbally anymore.

[00:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. So what, what's one thing, what is one thing that every young person needs to understand about themselves in order to build a healthy relationship? They need to know who they are and what they want. You know, I feel like peer groups, family are telling them who they are and what they want, because now they got to fall into all these different boxes. Am I this? Am I that? Things that I never even heard of before.

[00:37:24] And let their character traits be their character traits and not fall into some category. Just grow organically and know who you are. And again, that's loaded because we, birds of a feather flock together. I want to be liked by my friends. So I'm going to go over here with this group and they're doing things that I really shouldn't do. But if I don't go with them, I'm not going to be liked. You know what I mean?

[00:37:46] Because if you, if you're willing to stand alone and grow, then you're going to be able to morph into that person that you want to be as opposed to the group. So I feel like knowing who they are as best that they can and not being afraid of, you know, falling into these categories of what society, the social norms that we're throwing these kids into today, you know, helpful. Yeah.

[00:38:10] But it's challenging, you know, or, or maybe not so much because they're not so much, they're behind screens now. So they're not so much out and about like maybe when you and I were growing up. So maybe it's probably as challenging, but just know who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's even more challenging just because they're not getting those experiences. We, we learn who we are through experiences and usually it's not so great experiences. Right. The tough ones. We fell off the merry-go-round.

[00:38:39] Now we're from the merry-go-round. Yeah. Yeah. And so there is that, that part of, yeah, you have to, um, you have, I always, I'm always telling my clients, like you have to, in order to understand yourself, it's about taking action. You don't need to know what direction you're going in. You don't even need to know any of that. You just need to move forward. Right. And do something that will give you more information about yourself. Right.

[00:39:04] So what's your thought on, um, and I know we can't do it as like a blanket, but I often think like, what if there was a rule that no one could get married before 30? Do you know what I mean? Like how would that change marriage? And, you know, because I think one part of it is we're all living a lot longer. So once upon a time, like, I think my grand, my grandfather died at, you know, 70. So like me and my grandmother were married for a long time, but there was like an end point and she lived another 30 years. Right.

[00:39:32] So, you know, that's the thing is, is that we're living a lot longer. So we're having to carry these, you know, these relationships a lot longer. And I also have to say that I just, you know, the, the people with going to college or a couple of years at a college, you know, or even just working right out of high school. That's just not enough to know yourself. It's just not enough. Not at all. And I agree because our prefrontal lobe doesn't close until we're 25.

[00:40:03] So again, when I was before 25, I thought I knew everything. Oh yeah. You know, we all do, but there are some people who are old souls and they, they do get married young and they do follow, you know, their high school sweethearts, whatever the case might be. So I guess it's an individual relationship type of a thing. I wish there was a rule. I mean, seriously, I really do because if I knew then what I know now, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's the thing. I'm not trying to prevent love.

[00:40:33] I don't want people not to have these things. It's, it's more of you and, and 30 is an arbitrary number. And, but I think that especially what I found with, with my millennial clients, I think this has changed a lot, but with my millennial clients 10 plus years ago, there was a lot of pressure to check those boxes. Oh yeah. To get married, to have children and to know who you are. Like what have your life figured out by 30? Right.

[00:40:59] And if you haven't, if you don't have your life figured out by 30, then you've made a mistake along the way. Right. And I think that, um, that the, the, this, especially if you're someone who's like a type A go-getter, you know, those people become singularly focused on, well, I have to get married. Right. Right. Right. Well, I have four degrees. I didn't get my second master's. I didn't start that till I was 46. So that lets you know that you don't know who you are.

[00:41:27] And I got my first one in 1999. You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. I thought I wanted to go in this field and I, whatever that was human services there, but still it kept evolving. So you think, you know, but things change. So you're not going to know until you know. Yeah. You know, and that's the thing. And it's okay. It's okay. If you go to school for this and this doesn't work out, it's okay. Just keep trying until you land on something.

[00:41:55] But a lot of people, that's where they fall into depression. Okay. I'm a failure. I did. No, no, no. We have to keep trying, never give up. And that concept is hard for some people to conceptualize because I don't know the pressures that are coming upon them because of their family or whatever the case might be. Maybe they have a long line of doctors and this person doesn't want to be a doctor. And they went to school to be a doctor and they failed at it. And so the parents or the family's looking at them like a failure, but maybe they wanted to be a teacher or something. You see what I'm saying?

[00:42:23] So they have a lot of different pressures and it does. It takes time when that seed is planted for it to grow and blossom. It takes time. And a lot of people, we want that right now stuff, like get it together. Yes. Oh, yes. And yes, even though I know all this stuff, I still have that same sort of impatient, like, okay, I've learned this. Can we go, can we move to the next thing now? Right.

[00:42:47] So before we wrap up, if a listener, I would love you to share, like, what's one thing from this conversation that a listener can take with them to apply to their own dating life? Just know what you want and who you are. Because when you know who you are, you won't accept anything. Because it's like, if you don't believe in something, then you'll fall for anything. Right.

[00:43:11] So when you know who you are, then you won't, you'll be less likely to accept things that don't serve your greater good. Very well said. So thank you so much for being here. Share with us anything that you want to share about you, about your organization, about, I'm forgetting the name now, reimagined mental health. Yes. Yes. Therapy and consulting services.

[00:43:38] I'm licensed in Maryland, Georgia, and D.C. And I take individuals. I love couples. That's my favorite. I love working with couples. But, you know, I can be found on Instagram and Facebook, especially on my website. If you see my website, then you'll be able to contact me that way. But, yeah, just believe in self and don't let other people tell you who you are. You know who you are. You know.

[00:44:07] And listen, if you, this is the other thing, too. If you go out and you think you know who you are and you go out and you're like, oh, wait, this isn't who I am. Okay. Right. You get to change it again. Because you're, you're, you're continue to learn yourself. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's an ongoing thing. Yeah. You and I, we haven't arrived. We get another 5, 10, 15, 20 years. We're still going to find other aspects of ourselves that we didn't even know existed. Yes. And we're in our 50s. So. Yes. Well, and I don't know if you've ever counseled anyone.

[00:44:36] You know, I used to do this thing where I used to go into seniors' homes. I mean, and there was this idea of you're 85. What, what have you got to work on? I'm like, you'd be surprised. Right. You know, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. You know, there's a lot of feelings. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, age is just a number. And you just, I feel like just keep being a big kid. Yeah. Just love life. Be your best you. Well, thank you so much, Robin, for being here. And thank you to everyone for listening to The Gen Mess with Tess. Remember, we're not just fixing the mess. We're learning how to live in it.

[00:45:06] Stay curious. Be kind to yourself. And I'll see you all next time. You've been listening to The Gen Mess with Tess with your host, Tess Brigham. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And make sure to follow Tess Brigham on all social channels. To learn more about Tess's books, courses, or to have Tess speak to help clean up the gen mess at your organization, head on over to TessBrigham.com. Thanks for listening.