Ep 84: Why You Misunderstand Gen Z at Work (with Danielle Farage)

[00:00:02] Never feel like different generations just don't get each other? Certified coach, licensed therapist, and speaker, Tess Brigham, tackles the generational challenges shaping our personal and professional lives on The Gen Mess with Tess. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Gen Mess with Tess, where we're not just fixing the mess, we're figuring out how to live in it. I'm your host, Tess Brigham, so let's start making sense of the mess together.

[00:00:27] So my guest today is Danielle Farage, and she has built her career translating Gen Z for the rest of the working world. As a keynote speaker and content creator, she breaks down what actually motivates the newest generation at work, and why so many companies are getting it wrong. Her takes have landed her in Harvard Business Review, the BBC, Fast Company, Business Insider, and the New York Post.

[00:00:49] And she's been named a LinkedIn top voice for Gen Z and ranked number eight on Ona Lintika's future of work top 50. You're gonna have to explain that to me. It's probably, I'm probably too old. When she's not on stage or on LinkedIn, you'll find her talking shop about the future of work with anyone who will listen. Thank you so much for being on the show. Of course. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:01:13] Yes. I'm very excited to have you because I feel like you and I, we say the same things. It's just two different perspectives. And I often have these moments where I think to myself, well, this is what I'm observing, but I'm not, I'm actually not 25, 26, 27. So I just love that there are people like you out in the world going, wait, either confirming or saying, no, no, no, you know, this isn't, this isn't what we want.

[00:01:44] So you talk about, I was, I was reading in your, in your website that you talk about when you're a kid, you would have these pretend workplaces. Yeah. So what, tell me a little bit about your origin story in terms of you graduate in 2020. And I did have, I had some clients in 2020. I was trying to describe to people what that's like. So just tell us a little bit about you and when you graduated and how you landed to where you are today.

[00:02:11] Yeah. All right. So my origin story, when I was seven years old, I would play pretend workplace. And I, and so for context, my mom was in tech sales. She was not highly male dominated industry. And she was always a, you know, a leader of some sort.

[00:02:34] And I loved seeing her just like, try to make sure that everyone had a voice. That was like what I gathered from what she did. I really didn't know what she did. I just knew that that was part of it. She was really in charge of partnerships a lot of the time. So that's what I was, you know, I guess picking up on.

[00:02:54] And my dad was in construction. He had his own construction company. And essentially when I decided to follow my siblings and go to USC, I was really unsure of what I wanted to do, but I just knew that I wanted to do something involving people. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:44] And I remember he said, you know, find a problem that you care about and solving that problem will become a career in some way, shape or form. So that's really what I did. And I narrowed in on this one problem that I saw happening with nearly everyone I knew who graduated, which was that once they graduated, they went into a job and that job was just like terrible.

[00:04:37] Mm-hmm. And I wanted to be able to study psychology to be able to walk into any room and talk to people about what matters to them and bring that information back to the boardroom to help them make better decisions about people at scale. Mm-hmm. Simple, right? Yeah.

[00:04:56] And so that's what I did. I studied psychology. And when I graduated, COVID was happening. I was actually on my spring break of my senior year. And I'll go into a little bit more depth because I know people want to hear this story, right?

[00:05:11] Like this firsthand account of COVID grad, 2020 grad. So I was on spring break skiing with my mom. And the second day of skiing, she had just bought me for my 20-something birthday, I forget which one, a new pair of boots because I grew up skiing. Mm-hmm. So happy. I was excited to use them. We get home from our second day and on the bus, everyone's like, well, the mountain just shut down.

[00:05:38] And we basically five hours later, we didn't change our flights to that night. We changed them to the next day. And that night there was no one left in Salt Lake City. It was insane. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:32] And so I was using AI.

[00:07:02] I became the unemployed college grad. And three weeks later, I ended up at an incredible startup that treated me like an equal member of the team that valued me and my experience and the little experience I had. And I absolutely loved it. And it was a HR tech startup that made hiring better and faster and was amazing.

[00:07:37] Mm-hmm. And my own personal experience working at an incredible company, but also having been at a toxic startup.

[00:08:07] So two sides of the same coin. It's pretty crazy. But yeah, that's where it started. Wow. So I'm very curious. I have so many questions, but I'm very curious of when you first started going on LinkedIn. I mean, tell us, what were you talking about? Yeah. What does Gen Z want?

[00:08:29] Yeah. I mean, it really started with the leadership and the first-hand experience I'd had with a leader who brought me down, told me I was less than all the time, shamed me for looking for other jobs when they were kind of dangling the carrot and being like, oh, I'm going to pay you what you're worth one day.

[00:08:54] Um, and that was like where it started. I had an incredible leader named Dave Meckleberg, um, who is still so like, just so cool. Um, he's, he's incredible. And, you know, I think from day one, it was, for example, you know, I knew he was really invested in my growth. Um, and so what he did,

[00:09:22] I think it was like week one of me joining was, of course he put time aside for me. It was like three days of onboarding. Um, and he was the chief of staff of an 18 person company. So it's not like he had all the time in the world, but he made sure to put that time aside and show that I, I mattered, even though I was an intern at the time.

[00:09:44] I started as an intern. Um, and so essentially he sat me down and he said, please write me a list of five to 10 things, ways that you want to grow while you're here that don't have anything to do with your workflow. Hmm.

[00:10:02] And I wrote that list down. I showed it to him. We went through every single item on the list. He said, okay, I'm going to connect you with this person. You're going to do this thing. You're going to do this training, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're going to get you involved in this workflow and that one. And it was incredible. And essentially three months later, we went through the list again and we evaluated my progress and updated the goals based on where I was at and what I was interested in.

[00:10:29] Cause at the same time he knows I'm still learning what I care about. And there was just this level of respect that I hadn't received from any employer in the past. And at the same time, he was also pushing me to be better. Mm-hmm. And I think at like the very foundational level, right? We all want that. Yeah.

[00:10:57] Like that's something we all desire and crave. And my question was, why is that so hard to find? So. Yeah, I have theories. Well, yeah, now I have some ideas. I mean, I have my own theories, you know, just from being on the other side of it, because I know that, you know, I first started working with at the time millennials who were the 20 somethings

[00:11:26] back in the, you know, 2010, 2011. And I remember these young, especially women coming in and, you know, talking to me about work and how they were pushing back on their bosses. And I remember that initial sort of like, whoa, whoa, you're wait, no, huh? You're not supposed to do that. I'm a Gen Xer. So you're not supposed to do that. And then I sat for a while and I was like, wait a second, why shouldn't this person do this? Why, what? And then I went back and it's always been interesting,

[00:11:56] especially when I first started working with young people, because it did sort of force me to look at my own twenties and my own life and like the choices that I made and what I did, what I feel like I did well and not so well and, and so on. And that was one of the things that I realized. I was like, yeah, I really was. And many people in my generation, we just sort of endured whatever people gave us because we were the latchkey kids. And, you know, I'm a very true Gen Xer of like coming home alone

[00:12:22] and, you know, making sure that you got lunch and dinner and, you know, the going out and saying, we're going to spend the night at Stacy's. And then you're in some field somewhere, drinking Boone's farm and smoking cigarettes or whatever. Like we were, that's us. So it was very much that kind of, I'm just going to accept, you know, just accept it. And so it's funny when I started talking to other generation, you know, my people, my age and older

[00:12:48] about millennials, I had to go through that every single time. So to me, I feel like a big hurdle is always whatever generation's message was, because our message and what we were told is, if you make too much noise, shut up, sit down. If you make too much noise, then, you know, you're a pain. And, and so the identity for us is we're not pains. We don't, you know, and,

[00:13:16] and so what I see in the workplace today, and I think millennials took us so far, but unfortunately, they came about when, you know, phones and such and the ability to be able to reach someone 24 seven came about. Right. So I think, but what I, when I started working with Gen Zers, I'm like, oh, you guys are different. You guys are really different. And ooh, and I got very excited

[00:13:43] because this is my big, my big theory. And I say this to anyone who will listen is Gen Z is going to teach Gen X about life and about how to work and about how to be. And Gen X is going to teach Gen Z, like, you know, how to do a lots of things too, how to be at work, how to do all those things. But if you stop pushing it, Gen Xers, and just listen to these young people,

[00:14:09] they have a much better grasp on how to be, how to treat yourself, how to live. Because that's really what, you know, I think that, that the, the always on piece, people were so burned out by 2019. When the pandemic hit, everything had to break open. Everything had to break open. So I don't know, that's my theories. These are my own sort of just from living through it and my own experiences.

[00:14:38] And talking to other people of, you have this identity attached to your age and what you went through. So I used to work in Hollywood. So it was a lot about paying dues. Oh, how exciting. Yes, I know. Paying your dues, paying your dues, paying your dues. And that was, you know, there was this real attitude of, I got all this, I got shit piled on me for umpteen years in assistance. So I'm going to pile it on you. And I always found that to be insane.

[00:15:05] Yeah. Therefore you should do this, go through the same thing, even though we're very advanced in, you know, technology and all these ways that we live today. Uh, yeah. Um, no, it's, it's, I love that perspective. I think one of the things that I realized very early on in the centerpiece of my business is really this knack that I've always had for an affinity towards like

[00:15:35] other generations and engaging across generations. I grew up as a kid who didn't necessarily always have a friend around, not to say that I was lonely, but it was like my, you know, family vacations or whatnot. I was, I was always latching on to, you know, my, my, my parents or my dad, you know, playing

[00:16:00] backgammon on the beaches. And I was right next to him, you know, playing these like 50 year old Israeli men. That's what my college essay was about, like no joke. And I think that there's so much value. There's even more value. I would argue in playing around and, and engaging with generations that are different than surrounding yourself with only people who are of your age and state of life.

[00:16:31] And like, that's just, it's just something that I will never let go of. And I think it's something that we don't make enough space for in the workplace on a, on a personal level, right? You might do, you know, volunteer days or you might have, uh, intergenerational teams and, and be working together side by side. But at the same time, like if you're unable to get to know each other and the

[00:16:58] struggles that everyone's facing, you know, it can become very like me versus them kind of mentality, like you're talking about. And this sort of, well, I went through it. So therefore you should too. And I think one of the things that the pandemic forced me and probably a lot of people to realize is that we actually had very ill-defined phrases and ways of working. Like for example, you know,

[00:17:26] professionalism to you might look a lot different than professionalism to me. To me, professionalism means putting on a nice, nice top and maybe even wearing sweatpants, which I might be wearing right now, but who knows, right? Because I look professional and things like hard work, you know, is hard work something that we've actually been, are we actually able to like explain what that means

[00:17:53] and what that looks like? I had a conversation, um, you know, I think it was in 2022 with someone who worked at a really big company, uh, in the aviation space, who's been through a lot of, I'd say public trauma. You could probably guess who I'm talking about, but essentially this manager was speaking to me and said, Hey, you know what? Like I'm trying to mentor this kid who's new to the

[00:18:20] organization. And, uh, and he's really having a hard time with the fact that he's not going to get promoted this year because he's just not performing at a level that's, that's expected. So, I mean, it was a long conversation, but I'll give you the short end of it. I said, well, does he know what is expected and does he have a role model showing him what that looks like

[00:18:48] and what it means and who he should be or who that should be visible to? And she basically said, no, like probably not because he's fully remote and there's no one really role modeling the behavior for him. And I said, well, that's somewhere to start. Right. And I think that there, it's not that, you know, generations don't care about each other, but it's that we're not necessarily putting

[00:19:17] ourselves in each other's shoes. A lot of the time, we're not necessarily hearing each other out when it comes to things like our values and what we, what we value. Right. Those are, those are also two different things. So for me, the main, um, the main point is, you know, curiosity is the thing that will get us from a place of, well, I did this, so they should too, to, oh, well, should we rethink that? Yeah.

[00:19:46] Yeah. But yes. And curiosity is everything. Like if you can, if you can just, if you do nothing else in life, but just start getting curious, you will be amazed how many things will open up for you. Um, but yeah, I feel like often when it comes to this whole issue about like, whose responsibility is it? Like that's a whole other thing too. Like whose responsibility is it

[00:20:09] to fix these things? And, um, you know, the old way was you show up to work, you adapt, you do what, you know, and you figure it out. And when I work with managers and such, and I always, I always have to laugh when I meet, when I work with, meet people my own age, because they will stop me every time and be like, wait a second, you're telling them to write, we're not the only ones being lectured. Like, of course it feels like a lecture to them,

[00:20:35] but you're telling them that they need to be doing, I'm like, calm down. Don't worry. And I think that's a huge problem that, which is you're telling them to do this. It's like, you don't need to worry about what I'm telling them. You don't need to worry about it. Yes, I am. I am not, I'm not sitting here thinking that it's just one side, but you're the grownups, you're the adults, you're the ones that have all the knowledge. You're the ones that have been working at the company. So I am going to lean on you a little bit more to, to, to push that.

[00:21:04] And it's such an interesting thing that people battle. You see it a lot in relate. I see it a lot as, you know, when I work with couples, that whole thing of like, what are you doing? You know, I take out the garbage, what are you doing? Kind of thing. And it's amazing to me that we get stuck in that at work. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny. Cause I had, um, I had a really interesting interaction. This is fresh off the press of my own life. Um, an interesting interaction this past

[00:21:31] weekend with someone who was a fortune 500 CEO of multiple companies. And when I found out who he was, uh, I racked my brain and I was trying to think like, okay, what do I want to ask this person who I probably will never be like in his seat, right? Still on the board of probably multiple organizations,

[00:21:58] but we're in this neutral environment. Like I, it's really like, I can ask him anything. So I racked my brain and I come out with it and I say, so do you think that the corporate ladder is dead? Hmm. And he looks at me and he's kind of like, well, can you explain what you mean? And I explain it. There's fewer opportunity, you know, there's less incentive to stay at a company

[00:22:27] because you can get paid more at a different one. And you know, there's more opportunity to start your own business. Like I start kind of rattling off these things. You can't buy a house at 31 anymore. My mom did and probably he did. And he says, I don't think that it's dead. I just think there's a lot less opportunity than there was. Gets worse. Oh, well.

[00:22:55] We then get into a conversation about AI. He's like, I'm actually more, you know, nervous about AI taking jobs. And I say, oh, me too. Uh, the jobs that are fewer, right? Because corporate ladder is good. Uh, and then, and then we get into an interesting one and he's like, you know, in the boardroom, there are people who every, you know, everyone knows that maximizing shareholder

[00:23:19] value is the thing, right? Super important. Yeah. There are some people who will raise their hand and talk about other things like the ethics of it all. Um, and, and then later on, I actually relayed the story to a friend of my mom and, and he basically, he's had a full on corporate career and he's now at the top, you know, uh, reaping the benefits of that. And that's great.

[00:23:48] And I told him about this and he was like, yeah, well, you know, AI and all this stuff, it's for the next generation to figure out. You guys got it. And you know, I, I, I empathize. I empathize with him. I, I understand it. I, you know, you, you've worked so hard, you've hustled for so many years. You want to be able to kick your feet up and say, it's not my

[00:24:17] problem. Yeah. And that's totally fair, totally fair. And to the people coming in who are actually trying to change things, it's lazy and it's unfair. And I said that I fully said that to his face. And, you know, I think, um, if you're at a point where you're saying it's the next generation's

[00:24:47] job to change that thing or to save us, you have essentially declared your own retirement. Yeah. And if you haven't, then you should, because if that's your, you know, if that's your natural response, unprompted, you know, off the record, uh, then it means your time, it's, it's, your time

[00:25:11] is over and it's time for you to take a step back and give the people who still care, who still have skin in the game, who have something to lose a seat at the table. And that is really why I started this business. It's really why I, because I saw it, I saw the community I was helping this, this company

[00:25:35] build full of HR, town acquisition, DI professionals, all senior level, CHRO, you name it at any major company, they were likely involved. And when I looked around and I saw majority of them were 50 years older or even older, I said, why are they talking about re-imagining work versus having people

[00:25:58] my age at the table thinking about what we want work to become? So that, that was really the beginning of it all. Yeah, no, it's, it's a very, um, it's a very good point. And, you know, one of the things that, and we haven't talked about this, uh, cause I did a, a TEDx talk a couple of years ago about what Gen Z parents, what is it, what, what your Gen Z kid wants you to know. Right. And I'm talking to

[00:26:24] parents primarily. And one of the things that I talked about were the stats of how much you earn, you know, you mentioned housing, how much it costs to live, you know, back when I graduated and in the seventies. And, and, you know, I think most people are amazed when they hear some of these stats. And I think this is also a really important distinction because I think that sometimes people are like, oh, well, you know, yeah, maybe you're, you're a little bit older to buy a house. I'm like,

[00:26:52] no, there are situations where when I first graduated from college, I made no money. I think I made like, this was the nineties, less than 20,000 a year. I lived in San Francisco, didn't live in the best neighborhood, but I could pay my rent, pay my bills. And I had a great life. And that's the problem. That's the problem is, is that whatever job I would need to get to be able to live in San Francisco would not be what I would want to do. It would, I would be working all the

[00:27:20] time. And so you're sort of putting people or young people in this position of, yeah, you know, join the rat race, work all the time, do all this stuff, but we're not going to pay you enough to live, you know? And so then I'm like, so I too would be like, well, if I'm not making enough to live, I'm going to go travel, forget this. Or I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to go live with my parents. When I also try to tell people is like, and Gen Xers, they, and their kids, like

[00:27:46] Gen Z likes their parents. So they don't mind. We were desperate to leave the house. We wanted to get away from our parents. We have to like our parents because we can't afford. Yeah. Maybe that's it. You guys have to, maybe that's why it's to confront our family drama because yeah, you can't afford. So that's the thing. It's like, so I don't know how hard would you work?

[00:28:09] How, how, how, what, what's the incentive to stay? No, literally, literally when I graduated and I realized the cost of living versus, uh, versus, uh, average salary for entry level. And I saw that graph for the first time where it's just like, it just made zero sense to me. And I was like, why is no one talking about this? And it's, it's gotten even worse since I graduated. Um,

[00:28:38] you know, entry level job postings dropped like 35% in a year and new grad hiring from 2019 to now down more than half at the big 10, 10 companies. You know, the, the, I don't even remember the, um, the, there's a new one that's called mango or something like that. The, the new, uh, thing is

[00:29:02] now or something. I forget. Oh yes, yes, yes. I think. Yeah. Um, and only this year, only 12% of Gen Z had a job lined up before they graduated. And for millennials, it was three times that. Yeah. That's just like 10, 15 years. So like, I feel like when people hear these numbers, they don't actually, they can't wrap their brain around what that actually means or looks like.

[00:29:28] But when you try to visualize it for people, you know, it's, it's something like, uh, majority of Gen Z still is still either in school or lives at home majority. And, you know, at the same time, we're also becoming managers for the first time. So it's like this weird, like messy gen mess, right?

[00:29:54] It's just like messy middle. I'm like, wait, who is Gen Z? Like, are they children or are they adults? Like, we don't really know, but it's like kind of, and this is why I love this. This is why I've been working with this age for the last 15 years is that it is such, it is hard and difficult and stressful, but it is such a critical time for, for people just, and, and if you can use this time to work on yourself and in a way like process,

[00:30:23] like figure out what is it that I like to do and how do I want to show up and what, what do I value? All of this, it's like, who do I want to date or not date? All of that. Then you're so much, you can go into your thirties and forties and fifties because you've created in a different way, because you've created a life, not from just fast reactions to things, not just like, oh God, I got to get a job or, oh, everyone on Instagram looks like this. You're, you're making these, you know, you're being more intentional about everything.

[00:30:50] And that's why, you know, I don't know if anyone, um, if this is on your radar, but the quiet AI revolt amongst Gen Z, we saw it rear its head during the commencement speeches when there was a lot of booing at the, to the tune of AI. Um, and I've actually been doing some research

[00:31:11] on the topic because I think it's largely under talked about, but the, the, the fact is there is a large cohort of Gen Z that is pretty anti AI. Um, and I, I've started to sort of, you know, ring the bell, um, and, and, and talk about it a little bit. I'll, I'll be coming out with that

[00:31:37] research, uh, in partnership with question pro in the coming months. Um, but I think the, the main challenge is how do you get a generation on board with technology that is largely at risk of displacing

[00:31:59] them at the same time. And I think where organizations are very short sighted is in thinking that they can just take a pause from hiring entry level or cut the number of people they're, you know, hiring and wait a couple years for them to maybe, I don't know, get their shit together.

[00:32:28] Mm-hmm. And get that, maybe get, maybe get that labor for cheaper or once they, they're a little bit more AI enabled or someone else is going to train them on AI and then they're going to, and then we're going to hire it, hire them. Right. And that's one of the things that I've been working on is, is, is really researching what, what is the feeling toward, you know, what, what is,

[00:32:54] what are the feelings towards AI? Why do people feel this way? Is it aligned with what we're seeing in the market, right? Like frontier AI users, top users of AI, how are they reacting to it? And what are their, um, sort of reservations with it? And actually we're seeing some of those same reservations within Gen Z. Um, and that's sort of why they're, you know, anti AI or just a little bit like they're

[00:33:22] still warming up to it. But I think that's something that is largely under talked about that. If you don't address that challenge, it's like, okay, whose job is it? And I don't think anyone's really talking that much about it. Yeah, no, it's, it's a fair point. And the thing is we've been here before. This is how it was when the internet came about, like the same exact thing where everyone's like, wait, what, huh? The internet, you know, it's, we've been here before.

[00:33:49] And so that's why I'm constantly amazed. Like what we never seem to learn. We cannot learn at all from our past mistakes. Like, how do we, how do we adopt this? And just like with the internet, we had to create guardrails and there's ethics and values and, and, but we're all standing around going, what I see a lot of with older, older generations, they're like, well, we'll just have AI take care of it. I'm like, do you even know what that means? That's the other part of it too,

[00:34:15] is I don't think they understand AI. So that's the other part is like, there are these, you know, in every generation, there's a certain percentage that really understand AI and that's, it feels like that's it. And then the rest of us are just kind of operating based on the little bit that we interact or what we, what we read on headlines. Because I have, there's a lot of people, it's just all of their opinions are based on just headlines. Yeah. Like for example, do you really know

[00:34:40] what offloading tasks to AI does to your brain? Until March, I actually didn't really think about it that much. And when I went to South by, I heard a neuroscientist who studies this talk about the, the impact and the, the fact that you basically, if you don't use it, you lose it.

[00:35:06] Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, well then that makes sense as to, you know, that these are the things that Gen Z, because we're digital natives, these are the things that they actually, like we actually think about, like we actually are conscious about how we're using our phones and how much screen time we have. Because while yes, we've grown up on our phones, we've also grown up on our phones. Yeah.

[00:35:30] Which means that we've learned, of course, that they're addictive firsthand. And we're actively trying to do things about it versus saying, you know, oh, the tech companies are going to figure it out. Because they're not. They're not. And I think that's what many of these, you know, documentaries that we watch, you know, about the, how tech was created. What was that one about

[00:35:56] social media that was, it was like the social something? Oh, the social network? No. Are you talking about the Facebook one? No, no. It was, it was one that like basically exposed like social networks and, and, and phones and, and how addictive they are and how companies like make them super addictive. It came out a couple years ago. And like, we're, we're actually thinking about this stuff. And I, I don't think often

[00:36:24] that's what people assume of Gen Z. They basically are just like, oh yeah, you're always on your phone and you don't look up from it. And, you know, you don't know how to talk to people, but realistically, like we are, because we have had access to information. So many of us are really conscious of how we use technology, or at least we're thinking about it. And those are the types of,

[00:36:49] I would say, uh, like biases that we, we fight, right? Like, it's like, oh, you're just a dumb tech kid. Like, and we're, and we don't necessarily see ourselves represented in media in a, in a very positive way. So there, there's a lot of cards kind of stacked against us at the moment. Um, yeah, but I have hope we're not, but we're not victims either. Right? Like,

[00:37:15] because we have so much access to information, to AI, to creating businesses in new ways, like we're taking advantage of it. You look at any agency now that agencies are talent, talent agencies, like up and coming ones, largely led by Gen Z or millennial founders. Like we're not, you know, we're, we're not waiting around for anyone to save us. We're not waiting around for any job or,

[00:37:42] you know, any, any hiring manager to hire us because we know that we don't have time to wait around. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's generalization, but I would say majority of Gen Z is not waiting around. Yeah, no. And I, I don't think that you can, I mean, that's the thing is that, I mean, because you all, this is what I'm seeing is that you all are being forced to kind of figure out, like hodgepodge your jobs together, you know, figure it out because none of these jobs that are

[00:38:12] being advertised as entry level pay enough to live. So, you know, figure it out and put it together and you're absolutely right. I, one thing I want to touch on is, so one of the biggest things that I hear, this is what, you know, probably never say it directly to you, but the whole thing of like, Gen Zers, they're too sensitive. They can't take feedback, you know? And what I hear and what I

[00:38:37] know when I hear that is, because I'm a sensitive person myself is, you know, their nervous systems don't feel safe and that's, you know, that's what's going on. So I'm, I'm very curious of what do you say to those leaders that say to you? Because I'm sure they ask this question, like, why are you guys all so sensitive? Yeah. I mean, I usually will reflect the question back and either ask them, well,

[00:39:06] were you sensitive when you were 20? Or, or I'll ask them, well, were you raised in, you know, when, when were you raised? Like what time period? And they'll probably say, oh, I was raised in the eighties. And I was like, well, um, did, did you get a participation trophy where you celebrated for

[00:39:31] every, you know, B plus you brought home, right? Like the parenting style has shifted so much. So that the same people who have parented that generation, let's say, you know, someone who's a leader, who's asking me this question has parented someone of the same generation is looking at me, asking me, why are they so sensitive without looking at themselves or their own kid and asking,

[00:40:01] why are they so sensitive? So it's almost like there's like a, like cognitive dissonance. Like you're not able to like apply your own, uh, your own experience to like the workplace experience, like the personal professional are totally different, but that's why when I usually do keynotes, um, about Gen Z, I ask people to envision the kind of life, the work life that they want their

[00:40:30] kids to have or what, you know, qualities they would want them to, to feel or the feelings they would want them to feel at work. And a lot of the time it's so removed from the actual reality of work or the reality they're creating for their teams that the per creating that personal tie and thinking about, you know, as a leader, like how do I want my kids to experience work even if they're six

[00:40:55] or if they're 12 or if they're 18 or if they're 27, right? Like, am I creating that experience and those feelings for the people I'm leading? How am I enabling that feeling every day or creating space for it? So like, I think a lot of the time we forget our own, uh, our own role. And I think it's important to have that kind of reminder, but yeah, I mean, it takes two to tango,

[00:41:25] right? Like, I mean, I'm super sensitive and I also think we're in a time where it's okay to ask people how they want to receive feedback and get that buy-in. Like, I think a lot of the time we just kind of brush over the fact that we're giving people basically criticism. Like we're, we're, and we're, and feedback is a gift. And I don't think that growing up it was framed that way.

[00:41:54] I think feedback growing up for me was framed in like a negative connotation, right? It was like, if you're getting feedback, then that's probably a bad thing. You didn't get an A plus. Yeah. That's bad. Right. So I think we need to sort of reframe the idea. Like feedback is a gift. Adam Posner, my, the co-host of one of my podcasts taught me that one that he learned when he got feedback from Gary V when he was fired for being like bad at his job. Um, and that set him on a whole

[00:42:24] different trajectory. So I think like we need to be less afraid of giving feedback and just lean into, you know, asking people questions and, and stepping up to the plate as far as like the type of leader we want to see and becoming that. Yeah. One of the things that you talk about is you coined this phrase, it's French or ship. So tell me a little bit about that because I, it's sort of like, this is,

[00:42:52] this is how you feel from my understanding that this is the relationship that, um, leaders need to build with their employees is this French or ship. So how would you describe that? So French or ship is a mutually beneficial, vulnerable, and fun relationship between two people

[00:43:18] of any stage or, you know, age and stage of life that is based on the three L's. So it's, what can I learn? What can I leave? And what can I leverage? So usually I do this in the context of like a workshop where essentially like people come in with maybe a topic that they are interested in, like AI, or they come in with, um, you know,

[00:43:48] what do I want? Like from a cultural standpoint, the organization where it's at, like, what do I want to, what do I want to learn? Okay. How do I become a better leader? Or how do I use AI in my everyday? What's like one use case? How can I build an agent? For example, what can I leverage? What can I, what can I leave? So what is a lesson that I've learned that I could

[00:44:12] teach others? And I think part of that is, you know, an exercise in like confidence. I actually do know something and I could probably pass that along, even though I'm 22 and I don't know anything according to all the adults in my life. And the third one is what can I leverage? And that really is, you know, based on the conversations I'm having, the sharing with people, what I want to learn or

[00:44:40] what I can leave, what am I able to sort of take away and integrate into my own life? And, you know, I have, I have a lot of friend tours in my life. I have people who like Sally Wolf, she's 50 years old and she's a metastatic breast cancer survivor. She lives with breast cancer. Like it's insane. And like every time I hang out with her, you know, it's not necessarily that she's my mentor. And I'm like, I'm, I'm asking her all these questions and whatnot. And like,

[00:45:10] she's giving me all this advice, but it's really this bi-directional relationship where we're learning from each other. She's learning how I'm learning on about social media and I'm going in speaking at all these different places and what I'm learning from those interactions. And I, and she's able to reflect that back to me and say, Oh, that's so interesting. You know, I, as someone who's been there in the, in the cease me, you know, here's my interpretation of that. Like there is so much

[00:45:39] value in developing these types of relationships that aren't necessarily, you know, kind of prescriptive kind of like mentorship or reverse mentorship, but it's really this like happy medium, um, that I think deserves a place in the workplace. Um, and funny enough, really quick story. I was at

[00:46:01] transform a couple months ago and this leader from Toshiba was talking about how he's integrating AI in the, and how they're using AI in the company. And he was like, Oh yeah. Um, I literally create intergenerational learning circles where we get together in person and we talk about all the

[00:46:26] different ways that we've leveraged AI, both personal and professional life. That's incredible. Like that's exactly, and he's like, I wouldn't do, I wouldn't go to another company and, and not do it. Like it's, it's that critical to our, I would say communal learning. Mm-hmm. Um, I do need to let you go, but last question, which is if there's a list, if there's a leader listening right now, what's one thing that they can do differently to sort of

[00:46:55] this week, uh, to future proof, you know, how they lead? Um, Ooh, that's a good question. You know, I would just say maybe do a really quick Google search and type in like

[00:47:24] Gen Z workplace or something like that. And just do a quick scan of like all the news articles and, and what they say about where Gen Z is at. Maybe like basically I think just like this curiosity, like exercise and exercising curiosity and understanding, keeping your ear to the ground, understanding what this generation is going through. And just next time you have an interaction

[00:47:53] with someone who is a Gen Z or like having that thought or that headline, like front of mind and just asking them about it. Like what are their thoughts on it? Because a lot of the time I think that generations go through things in silos. Mm-hmm. Yes. And a lot of the time those things, you know, they come out at like a Thanksgiving dinner or a commencement speech or whatnot.

[00:48:17] And you really understand what is happening at the, at those moments in time, but like things are happening all the time. Like we're always dealing with something new. So I think like, I, I find it so honestly touching and like, I'm so grateful whenever a generation who's, you know, maybe six years old is like looking at me and asking me like, oh yeah, like what do you think of the

[00:48:42] commencement speeches or what do you think of AI or like, how do you feel about XYZ happening in the world? Mm-hmm. I just think it goes a long way. Yeah. Well, people want to be seen and heard. Is that crazy? I mean, people just want to be seen and heard and valued. And, but at the core, what you're really talking about is this, and it's, it always comes down to this, this curiosity and empathy, you know, curiosity, and then having some empathy of stop thinking about your life and what

[00:49:12] you went through and put yourself boom to what would it be like to graduate in 2020. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Is there anything that you would like to share with the audience? Anything, anything you have coming up or plug, promote? Yeah. Um, so I am going to be releasing

[00:49:33] some insights from this study I did. It's all about basically like AI, uh, like reflections on AI and thoughts on AI from Gen Z, from a Gen Z perspective. Um, and it's going to be great. I'm going to, that's going to be on LinkedIn. So if you're not following me there, I suggest you do that. And yeah, just always putting out new things. I might be doing a course soon. So just keep,

[00:50:03] you know, keep on keeping on LinkedIn. Yeah. Awesome. Follow me there. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank to all of you for listening to the Gen Mess with Tess. Remember, we're not just fixing the mess. We're learning how to live in it. Stay curious, be kind to yourself, and I'll see you all next time. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to the Gen Mess with Tess with your host, Tess Brigham. Make sure to subscribe

[00:50:31] wherever you get your podcasts and make sure to follow Tess Brigham on all social channels. To learn more about Tess's books, courses, or to have Tess speak to help clean up the Gen Mess at your organization, head on over to TessBrigham.com. Thanks for listening. Bye.