The Hidden Cost of Avoiding Conversations with Dyann McDowell

[00:00:05] Welcome to The BOLT Podcast. I'm Todd Birch, entrepreneur, keynote speaker, and mental fitness coach. Whether you're a new listener or one of our loyal listeners, I'm glad you're here. See, I believe we're all a work in progress. No matter where you are in your journey, there's always another lesson, another challenge to overcome, and another opportunity to grow. And that's what this podcast is all about.

[00:00:31] With my guest, we'll have honest conversations about leadership and personal and professional growth. I'm excited for this next episode, so let's get to it. What really shapes workplace culture? Is it the mission statement on the wall? The employee handbook? Or is it the everyday conversations we have? The behaviors we tolerate and the conversations we choose to avoid.

[00:00:59] My guest today believes culture is built in those moments. And that every workplace challenge presents an opportunity to change what happens next. Dyann McDowell is the founder and president of Training Marbles Incorporated, a workplace culture and HR consulting firm she's led for more than 25 years.

[00:01:22] Known as a culture architect, Dyann is a speaker, certified diversity executive, and author of Civility Unleashed, HR's playbook for turning chaos into collaboration. Today, we're exploring why leaders avoid difficult conversations. What's really happening beneath workplace conflict and how small moments of courage can create meaningful change.

[00:01:51] Dyann, I'm excited. Welcome to the Bold Podcast, my friend. I am excited. Thank you, Todd. It has been nothing. Since the moment I met you, I have just been excited by your work. And I've watched multiple podcasts and watching you speak. So I am truly excited about this moment. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, this, you know, and so we met at Disrupt HR Columbus this past summer. And I heard your talk.

[00:02:21] I believe it was focused on the L3 reset, which is one of your kind of frameworks. And I just knew we needed to bring this conversation to the audience. This is an important topic right now. You know, culture is one of those kind of elusive words.

[00:02:39] And I say that because I think of it like branding, you know, being a marketing guy, graph design guy, you know, you say branding and the first thing people think about is the logo or an advertisement. And culture is kind of like that, too, where I don't think people really understand what goes into culture.

[00:02:59] And ironically, I think the two culture and branding are a little bit tied to the hip because branding is everything you do that makes your company who you are. And I believe that culture is the same way. But all it takes is a few bad apples or a few conversations you avoid. And that culture can start to erode. So I'm ready to talk about culture.

[00:03:28] But first, Diane, I want to talk about your experience because you don't just kind of fall into this. Right. There was there had to be something that led you to this particular focus in your work. So 25 years in HR, helping organizations, helping executives, people, workplace culture. What drew you into this particular area? You know, it's funny.

[00:03:54] I want to circle back for half a second because one of the new trainings that we're doing in our civility arsenal is branding. And it's really saying to employees, you own your brand. And I do believe often people think that branding is a corporate thing. Branding is about everything. But branding really is our reputation in motion. Right.

[00:04:21] And when we look at branding and we look at culture, there is a alignment. And that alignment is critically important. But, you know, what brought me to this work, I it's funny. I always tell people HR chose me. And for most HR practitioners, especially the ones that I know that are really good at their job.

[00:04:46] There's never been a five year old that's like, I want to be an HR person. Right. It's just not a thing. And so for the most part, HR, you know, you get chosen. Right. And so for me, I literally was a sales executive for Ohio Health and the occupational health department of Ohio Health. And I worked with employers. That was my job.

[00:05:15] And in working with employers, the core of my job was help identify employers need from the medical standpoint and then drive that into the business. Right. And so that was my job at Ohio Health. And I would go out to employers and I met hundreds of employers.

[00:05:38] And in that job, I would they would say, hey, can you do a talk on safety for our team? And absolutely. So I come in and I do a soft talk on safety. And after like, you know, I got my my legs, sea legs on and all that stuff. I started hearing employers saying, you did that better than the presenters that were paying thousands of dollars to come in and do this for us. And I was like, well, that's interesting.

[00:06:06] So I came home and I said to my spouse, I said, you know what? I'm going to start my own consulting business. She said, what? And I said, I'm going to start my own consulting business because I believe that I can do it better, faster, cheaper. And I want to partner with employers to give a better outcome from a training standpoint. And so I did that for a long time. And my focus was on the safety side. I did OSHA.

[00:06:36] Lots of people know me as the drug free lady. Right. And so I began. That's literally how I began. And then clients inevitably, my contact was always HR. And they would say, hey, can you help me solve this issue? Absolutely. So we'd look at the issue. We would figure out a solution. And so really and truly, HR chose me.

[00:07:04] I fell into it and absolutely love the job and what I do and all of those things. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting as I speak at a lot of HR chapters and conferences, you know, like you do. Most people will say I fell into HR. Right. I think it's the same thing you're saying. I, you know, HR chose me. And that was the same for me as well.

[00:07:33] Being an entrepreneur of a small business, 10, 15 employees, give or take over the years, as you continue to grow. And even after that first employee, there needed to be some function of HR. I didn't have any traditional training, no SHRM certification. And I just kind of made my way. So this conversation today is a little personal for me.

[00:07:58] And honestly, I think it's going to be a little tough, Diane, because I was the guy that avoided those conversations. So I was, I was the owner. I was the leader. I was the manager who avoided it. And I saw the detriment that it had on my team, which therefore affected the culture.

[00:08:25] So, you know, I welcome discomfort, right? And I think a lot of this, I was thinking about this yesterday, Diane, just kind of thinking about our conversation. And maybe one phrase that is important for HR, and this is part of my keynotes, is getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Yes. Yes. And we're going to dive into, and I want to steal your thunder, but that just is something that kind of came top of mind.

[00:08:53] And I'm thinking, okay, yeah, this is all about discomfort, which as humans, we just, we don't love it. Right. Right. And it's funny because I think a lot of people think that, you know, the art is avoiding discomfort. That's not. And I think also people believe that culture is built based on the slogans we have on the wall. And I reject that notion.

[00:09:20] I reject the notion that we go out and we buy this beautiful artwork that says teamwork, and that solves the problem. And that is our culture. And the truth is that we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And if we don't, we fail to grow. Right. And we don't innovate. We don't change. We don't grow in our comfort.

[00:09:46] And so I, you know, as a practitioner, I have had some of the most difficult conversations with people. I've had those conversations that have literally changed people's lives. Right. But the truth is, is that I am a human, humanistic person.

[00:10:06] And what I know to be true is that I can have a conversation that is accountable. It is direct. But it is respectful. And those things can coexist. You know, when we look at ourselves as leaders, I think one of the things that we have to really understand is our team.

[00:10:33] Each individual are humans that bring, hopefully, their whole self to work. And if we're doing our job right, humans are going to make mistakes. Humans are going to disagree. Humans are going to be flawed. And that's OK. We've got to get comfortable in saying, hey, let's talk about that.

[00:10:58] I said this before and I'll go off for a second, but I said this before and I've said it for years. The longer you wait to fix anything, the more expensive it becomes. Right. And so we can take a situation that is fairly small and resolve it, have the conversation even in our discomfort.

[00:11:24] Or we can wait and we can allow that thing to grow into a mountain. And then we've got to unpeel all the layers that the avoidance actually created. And so as a leader, I say all the time that we got to get real comfortable being uncomfortable. And if we are committed to the workplace, if we're committed to the team and we're committed to growth, it's critically important.

[00:11:54] Oh, amen. I'm right there. And again, I was that guy. I was that guy who avoided that discomfort because it was much easier, Diane. Right. It was much easier to put it off another day, another week. And here's the thing, guys. Like my team noticed that, you know, everybody around you knows that that conversation needs to be had. It's not just you.

[00:12:24] Right. Especially if it's going to be a difficult conversation. And the longer you put that off, it festers and has the potential, dare I say the T word, to be toxic. And that's the last thing you want. Right. So here I am faced with a difficult conversation with an employee, putting it off, putting it off, putting it off. It festers.

[00:12:54] And once I finally have that conversation, rip the Band-Aid off, if you will. Yes. Wow, Diane. Like the elephant on my back, the piano on my back, gone. Yes. And the most beautiful thing, forget about me, my team. Oh, my gosh. That. I didn't realize it was on their back, too. Yes.

[00:13:23] And next thing you know, they're a whole new team. The culture changes from one conversation. Right. Because they've been waiting for that and they couldn't speak up. It was a conversation I needed to have, but I was avoiding it. And there are some tools and tactics. And maybe that's where we go with this. I have a lot of things I want to talk about because I'm really excited. But we're here. We're talking about avoiding difficult conversations.

[00:13:51] It's a big challenge with leaders, right? It is. I mean, and Todd, you said it. I mean, the reality is this. When there is an issue, not only are we uncomfortable, our team members are uncomfortable. And as we let those things fester, once we have the conversation, there is oxygen.

[00:14:14] And that oxygen is necessary so that everyone can own their part and move on. I say this all the time when I'm doing leadership training. Bad behavior is either tolerated or duplicated. Right. And the truth is, is that if we don't deal with an issue, all we're doing is saying it's okay. It's tolerated. It's good.

[00:14:42] And so we aren't helping by avoiding. We actually are just costing ourself more. Yes, absolutely. People are human and they see everything. And they see that you're avoiding it and maybe feel like you're giving them a pass. And then you're right. It duplicates or then gets toxic and spreads, which is not good.

[00:15:11] You know, Diane, I look back on those conversations because this conversation that we're, you know, we were about to have and now are having. I did a lot of reflection. And those were tough moments. But I built some new skills. I added some tools to my tool belt through mental fitness and the positive intelligence program that I that I coach that allowed me to take a breath. And I think that's a lot of time.

[00:15:41] To pause. Right. Yeah. And to come into that conversation with more civility, which you mentioned. Right. With more curiosity. With more empathy. And it doesn't mean that I'm not holding somebody accountable. It doesn't mean that that's still not a difficult conversation.

[00:16:05] But we can still be civil, still be empathetic and curious. And that's going to allow that conversation to be much richer. Right. And when you do that, at least for me, it took some of that weight off. And then the difficult conversations that preceded that big one were much easier. And I didn't put them off as long. Right. So I don't know.

[00:16:33] I guess I'm just sharing some of the tips and tactics I use. But let's let's stay here and unpack it, Diane. What what have you seen? What situations have you been in and what have you used or have trained leaders to use that has helped them in those difficult conversations? You know, there's there's a couple of things. Right. There's a there's a couple of things in there. And as a practitioner, I'm constantly looking at how do we help?

[00:17:02] And I will spend let me say this the last 10, 12 years of my career literally helping supervisors in the front line retool and support them. Because what I know to be true is culture is built on every conversation we have and everyone we avoid. Right. And so people often think it's about the H.R. policy. And I I reject that so much.

[00:17:30] I always say that policies are the stake in the ground. It's the minimum expectation. And the truth is, it's really the D in the workplace. It is. And I used to say my son, I remember one time brought home a D. And it was a D plus. And he had just not put effort into his classwork and turning in assignments. And that's a whole other conversation.

[00:17:59] And he also had two C's on his report card. And I said, I have a question. He said, OK. I said, at what point have you only gotten 70 percent of your needs met? And he paused. And I said. 70 percent of your food. 70 percent of your shoes.

[00:18:27] Well, give me an example. And he goes, well, I can't. And I said, OK, because here's the truth. You have settled and you are coasting. To be the top of the bottom. That's what a C is. Right. You're you're you're coasting. And what you're basically saying is I'm going to do just enough to get by.

[00:18:52] And what I find with supervisors and Todd, I don't fought them for this. We systematically in business have taken the most skilled individual at the trade and promoted them to lead. And what we've not done is given them the actual leadership tools they need to deal with all the mess that they're going to encounter.

[00:19:20] You know this as a business owner. I know this as a business owner. There's going to be conflict. There's going to be disagreements. There's going human nature dictates that. And if there wasn't, human resources would never have existed. We got to deal with the human stuff in conflicts part of that human stuff. And so the truth is, is that we've done a bad job upskilling and supporting supervisors.

[00:19:48] And therefore, we're getting mediocre results. I don't blame them. What I actually believe is it's a systematic failure. And we've overlooked the fact that our supervisors actually need us to say, hey, when a conflict happens, here's the way you deal with it.

[00:20:08] So one of the things I did, and this was shortly after my book came out, was we define civility. And can I back up a second so that this – I'm going to make it make sense for a second, right? So when I first started doing culture work, the definition of civility was be nice, be kind. And I was like, if that's all it is, I'm out.

[00:20:38] I don't – I'm not interested. I'm never going to walk into a workplace and say, hey, let me teach you how to be nice. Let me teach you how to be kind. And while those are necessary, that can't be the navigation that we give. And so my team, we worked really hard on our definition of civility. And that definition is that it is the thread of humanity that binds us together.

[00:21:07] It's the moment we lean in, listen, and learn from others, right? So the lean in, listen, and learn is the L3 reset. And what I learned after the book came out or have expanded since then is the fact that supervisors need a tool. And the tool is the L3 reset. You got to lean in with genuine curiosity. You have to listen.

[00:21:36] And I always say chaos leaves clues, right? If you're listening and you are paying attention and not only to what's being said but what's being avoided, the chaos is going to leave clues. And so from that perspective, we then teach them how to learn and then reset and protect the standard. And so we give them a very simple script.

[00:22:01] We literally teach them, hey, this happens on the L3 reset, the lean in portion. Let's say there's an issue with a team member. And you're in a team meeting and a team member is disrespectful to a coworker. If we do nothing about that, what we're saying to our team is we are okay with disrespect.

[00:22:30] And that standard, everyone can duplicate. And so what do humans do? They duplicate the standard that we've taught, right? The problem is that or the thing that we have to do is we have to disrupt that disruptive behavior. And so what I say to supervisors is let me give you a tip.

[00:22:55] If you look at your team and you say, hold on, I don't want to miss what matters. If you look at your team and you lean in just physically a little bit, what you're doing is you're saying, no, no, that behavior is not okay. We can disagree, but we will not disrespect each other.

[00:23:18] What I'm doing is I'm resetting the standard and I am leaning in in a way that says, that is not how we treat each other on this team. And so that small disruption teaches people exactly what is expected of them. And when we as leaders do that, what we're doing is we're saying, here's a stake in the ground and I will accept nothing short.

[00:23:44] And then inevitably what happens is people stop the disruptive, disrespectful behavior because you've essentially, as their manager said, no, that is not okay. So I know that was a long path off, but sorry. That's okay. No, we got into your framework. We were going to get there anyhow. So I love it. And I wholeheartedly agree. Lean in, be curious, right? Clues.

[00:24:14] We always say on the show, data is all around us. Everything is data, but you have to be open and curious enough to see it. Then you can take in that information, evaluate it and choose how you respond. And that's one thing I want to say about difficult conversations or just challenges in general. The one thing that we have is the power to choose how we respond.

[00:24:43] And that, my friends, goes a long way in setting the tone and the culture, right? Yeah. In what we say and what we don't say. And I love how you say that. A lot of this happens in the conversations that aren't had. And my wife always says, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So there's a lot here.

[00:25:09] At the end of the day, it just comes back to knowing your people, right? And one of the things that I've learned, and especially in these conversations this year, even starting at SHRM National, there were a couple through lines that were consistent. And one was psychological safety, which I'm not going to go there, but definitely plays into all this. But it's knowing your people and spending the time to have those one-on-ones, which,

[00:25:38] so I'll circle around, if you know your people and you're having iterative conversations, then that difficult conversation, the one that's going to be uncomfortable, it's not going to be all that bad because it's not this big thing that has boiled up over three, six, 12 months, right? You've already had some smaller combos where you've talked about some of this.

[00:26:08] And that was the thing, the hard lesson I had to learn, Diane. And once we flipped that script and we focused on and we trained our leaders, say, look, I don't care. You're going to have a one-on-one with every employee. It might be 15 minutes. It might be 30 minutes, but every week. Yes. If our number one priority is our people, then damn it, let's spend the time and devote it to our people. Yes. It's really that simple.

[00:26:37] Yeah, it really is. And the truth is, Todd, you're spot on. You're an emotional intelligence guy. I'm a student of emotional intelligence. And the one thing I always say with emotional intelligence is, one, you've got to know yourself, right? You've got to be self-aware. And when you are self-aware, then you also have to look at the self-regulation.

[00:27:03] So it never helps for a leader to take the temperature through the roof. What I always say is this, you know, I'll give you an example. I have one of my fire chiefs and we were talking about an issue that had come up and he had to deal with an issue with a firefighter. And so we had talked through this issue. I had coached him through, hey, this is what you need to say.

[00:27:33] Here are the things that I think are critical, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We probably spent a good 30 minutes prepping him for a conversation that would likely take him five, six minutes to have, right? And after the conversation, he came back and he goes, that went bad. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, I got frustrated. Firefighters said something initially that frustrated him.

[00:28:01] He responded in frustration and the temperature went completely up. And I said, huh, OK. You set the tone, you own the temperature. And he said, what? I said, you hurt me. You set the tone, you own the temperature. You don't get to be hot and then just expect everyone else that that's not the temperature that's set.

[00:28:30] And I said, so the truth is, is that, yes, we deal with some complex issues. We deal with stuff that it's not just a little micro disruption. It's literally a HR red flag. That doesn't mean that as we get hotter, that escalates. What it actually means is our posture changes. So I created what's called the Richter scale.

[00:28:56] And I literally, from a performance standpoint, created the Richter scale. And what I teach and what my team teaches supervisors is you don't get hotter, you get more intentional. So the difference with a micro disruption versus a team, an HR red flag is on a micro disruption.

[00:29:21] We get curious why it's happening and we correct the behavior. On an HR red flag, my job is to be intentional and protective. So if I know or have been told that there is a sexual harassment or inappropriate touching that's happening on my team, that temperature is hotter. My job is not to get madder.

[00:29:47] My job is to actually change my posture to match the situation itself. And so it's those type of tools that help supervisors go, oh, okay, got it. Now I know what's expected of me as a leader. I know that my posture has to change.

[00:30:07] And I know that if I stay on task, not focused on what the person did and their behaviors and all those little things, but here is the performance issue that I want corrected. And here are my clear expectations for where we go. And so it literally, that's the pivot point, right?

[00:30:29] So there's a ton of tools in there, but those are the two tools that from a frontline supervisor leadership standpoint that we teach them so that they literally have the ability to protect the culture and then take care of their employees. And I couldn't agree with you more.

[00:30:52] There's no reason if we are saying the team matters and the humans matter, that we're not meeting with every person on our team every single week and having a conversation face to face to talk about, hey, what's going right? What's going wrong? Where do we go from here? And technically, and then I'll be quiet, I promise.

[00:31:14] Because when we are looking at our employees that are in their 20s, if you are waiting to touch base with them once per week, they're already disengaged. They've already checked out. And so the difference between a baby boomer who's in their 60s, 70s, and a Gen Zer who's in their 20s is a Gen Zer likely needs three touches a day.

[00:31:44] A baby boomer likely needs one touch a month. And so it's infusing the understanding generationally for our team members, but making sure we are touching base. So it may be that my baby boomer, what I'm going to say to my baby boomer is, hey, great job. I appreciate how you did that. I appreciate the delivery. I appreciate, you know, the central knowledge you bring to the team.

[00:32:13] And that conversation may take me three minutes, four minutes, where I'm really with the younger teammate saying, I literally need touch points with them every day to keep them engaged. And then I need once a week to meet with that person for a 15, 20 minute face-to-face conversation. And so we also have to balance that.

[00:32:43] And we have to balance those team members as a result of that. Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you have those tools in place. And it gives us a foundation to start with, right? I think every person's going to be unique. But generally speaking, we could start with those foundational items, right? Knowing the age groups. But when you know your people, you know what they need, right?

[00:33:12] And you also know what lights them up and what trains them. Hey, it's Todd again. Look, our leaders are facing incredible challenges right now with burnout, disengagement, and stress among our teams. We see the data. Gallup shows us that 80% of employees and managers are disengaged. SHRM reports that burnout and stress are at the top of workplace challenges.

[00:33:38] And the Global Business Index reports a 180% increase in business disruption. Those are real problems. And that's why mental fitness matters more than ever. Mental fitness is your ability to respond to pressure and challenges with clarity, confidence, and laser focus. Instead of being derailed by negativity, self-doubt, or stress.

[00:34:05] It's about building that self-command, especially when it matters most. How do I know? Because I went through a mental fitness program called Positive Intelligence during COVID. Changed my life. Changed the way that I live, lead, and run my business.

[00:34:23] And through the Positive Intelligence program, I work with leaders and teams to help them reduce burnout, strengthen resilience, and create a culture where people feel supported, engaged, and capable of performing at their best, even under high pressure. It's a neuroscience-backed program. It's only eight weeks, and it works. So if you're interested in learning more about the program, visit my website, toddbirch.com.

[00:34:52] Let's set up a call, and I'll walk you through a quick demo. Now back to the show. The warning signs. Like, are there warning signs within an organization that, hey, the culture is headed down the wrong path? Yeah. And what might some of those things be? You know, in my book, Todd, I give HR literally the playbook.

[00:35:19] And I say to them, hey, what I'm really invested in is you knowing how to do this. And so the framework we use is called AIMS. You got to assess, truly assess the culture. You got to implement. You got to mobilize your leadership. And then you got to spark, right? You got to spark the change in the workplace. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. We didn't say that, but thank you. Literally, literally.

[00:35:46] And so one of the things that I always say is there's a gazillion measurements that we look to, right? We can look at turnover. We can look at tardiness. We can look at things like errors. We can look at injuries in the workplace. We also can look. So there's all of these KPIs that in the HR world, we're constantly looking at data and looking at numbers.

[00:36:13] But there's some other really simple things that we should be looking at day to day. And so one of those is we should literally be looking at our team interactions. If employees start to become silent, they're disengaged. And our job is to pull them back in, right?

[00:36:38] Disengagement is one of the most dangerous behaviors in the workplace. And so, you know, based on a SHRM survey, 80% of our employees are disengaged. And they're disengaged because we haven't shown them leader by leader why we do what we do and what the standard is, right?

[00:37:04] And then on top of that, we haven't actually said to our team, hey, when pressure hits, do this. Like I say to my team all the time, you don't need me to make the decision when something goes wrong. When pressure mounts, take care of the client. That is my expectation. And that is what I expect you to do every single time.

[00:37:33] And then I give them very clear guidance. And then I trust them to do the work. Like, why am I micromanaging you? You got hired because you have the skill set. And my job as your boss, as your leader, is to ensure that you feel safe in making a mistake.

[00:38:00] You feel safe in making the decision. And you don't need me to be in it with you because you know our guidance. You know our guidelines. You know my expectations. And so, you know, Simon Sinek's book, Why, right? And that is one of the things that supervisors have to do for their team. Here's what we're good at. Here's who we do it for.

[00:38:28] Here is when all things go wrong. This is my expectation. And it could be as short as two, three sentences. But every supervisor has to have a why for their team or their team doesn't even know what the purpose is or why they're doing what they're doing.

[00:38:48] So if we're paying attention to our teammates and we're paying attention to what's happening and what's not happening and we are dealing with behaviors in the workplace, then we literally are saying, here is how we work. Here is my expectation. Here is my expectation. And this is the standard for everyone. The superstar doesn't get a different book.

[00:39:15] The owner's son doesn't have a different set of rules. These are the expectations for everyone across the board. And when we do that, then we literally are measuring culture in real time. And we're making the tweaks and changes as we need to make those tweaks and changes.

[00:39:36] So those are some of the things that I look for all the time and that I say to frontline leaders, hey, if your turnover rate is greater than 10%. If your turnover rate is greater than 10% of the company's turnover rate, that's a manager problem. And what we got to do is we got to say, hey, the company's turnover rate, I'll just give this as an example, right? If the company's turnover rate is, let's say, 17%.

[00:40:06] But this one supervisor's turnover rate is 28%, 29%, you got a manager problem. And the first thing I'm going to do when I come in and look at the culture is I'm looking at those differentials and I'm saying, okay, what's going on on this team that's causing the turnover rate to be higher? Is it a leadership failure? Is it people don't have the tools they need to do their job? What is happening?

[00:40:35] And how do we kind of look under the covers and say, okay, we're going to solve that issue because that's a clear indicator that there is a problem on that particular team? Yeah. You know the old saying, right? People don't leave companies. They leave bad managers. Yeah. It's true. And we're seeing that those numbers are reflected everywhere.

[00:41:05] SHRM reporting about disengagement and burnout and stress at the top of workplace challenges. Gallup polls, we've seen it too. Depending on where you read, what you read, 70%, 80% of employees and managers disengaged. And there is a kind of a messy middle too in there as well. And those are the people that they really do care.

[00:41:30] And that's where my work comes in, Diane, is that spark, that spark factor. They've lost something. They've lost their connection to something, whether that's the mission, their role, their job, their career, their people, right? Especially the younger generation. And we're seeing that they are struggling the most right now because they are disconnected. And there are a number of things that play into that.

[00:42:00] But one is, I think, the clear communication and the expectations. I love your focus on that. And we've talked about that on the show quite a bit is when you have clarity, then you know what you should be doing. And if you set the expectations, you take the time to know your people. You allow them to stretch, which is what lights people up because people love to grow whether they believe it or not. Yeah. They're going to fail.

[00:42:30] But it's okay because you've created the safe space. They know it's okay because we're not just celebrating the results and the success. We're also celebrating the growth, the learning, the experimentation. You have a recipe for a great culture because your people are growing, which they want. They stick around. And then they're building better relationships. And they're just overall better humans because they're happy.

[00:42:59] And that bleeds home. So now their relationships with their family is better because they have a better workplace culture environment. So it's interesting. You know, we could talk about this all day and night. And there are awesome tools that you've created and lots of other tools that are out there. But at the end of the day, it does come back to just simply taking the time to really spend knowing your people.

[00:43:28] And you said something at the beginning that I earmarked. And we've talked about this quite a bit on the show about moving managers, right, taking that experts in whatever they do, moving them into a leadership role. Maybe not even having the conversation to see if they want it. But we do it because they're good at what they do. And sure, it makes sense. It's quick and easy. But we never tell them what to do. We never train them.

[00:43:54] And so they don't know that they need to spend the time with the people. They don't know how to handle difficult conversations. And I'm raising my hand because I'm guilty as charged. I've done it. It's so easy. All of us have. I love it. Let's just move you right in. Oh, you really don't love managing people or you don't know how to? How dare you? I never trained you. So, yeah, it's, yeah. Lots of mistakes on my end learning.

[00:44:24] But how much I've learned from those mistakes is incredible. Yeah. So, I don't know where we go from here, Diane. This has been great. You know, culture is so important. And it's so different now, you know, since we came back from COVID. I think it's even harder to really get the pulse.

[00:44:51] It's harder to keep those people connected, albeit hybrid, virtual. It's great. You know, you and I are having a conversation here. But, you know, being in person, it would be 100 times better, right? Right. It's just the way we are as humans. But it's technology. It's where we're at. And we have to adapt and be flexible. And that's, you know, that's kind of what we're here to do.

[00:45:16] But, yeah, culture is, it's a crazy, it's a crazy, crazy thing. You know what, Todd? I think, and we're so in line in the work we do, right? There's different pieces and parts to it. But one of the things, and I've heard you say this, and it is so true, is curiosity. Curiosity moves the needle.

[00:45:42] And it moves the needle because as humans, we are hardwired for curiosity. As we get older, we shut that down, right? And we want to become less curious because we want the world to see us as confident. We want the world to see us as all the things that we believe leadership is, when in fact, the curiosity is a critical element.

[00:46:09] My mom used to say to me all the time, she was like, you know, the danger of you is that you have the curiosity of a three-year-old with a genius mindset. And it used to drive her insane. I think the day that she passed away, she used to go, because it's just kind of how I'm wired, right?

[00:46:34] If I had a superpower, it's reading and sensing what's happening and then really questioning the why. And so curiosity is one of those things that you just, if you lose it, then you lose the edge. And so it's so important that we stay curious. And I do drive people around me crazy because I'm like, why? Well, okay, I understand that.

[00:47:03] But tell me why we do it that way. And that moves the needle. And for me, before I will definitively say, okay, we've got an answer, I go no less than three layers deep on why. And that for me has moved the needle from a business standpoint. It's moved the needle for me personally.

[00:47:27] Secondly, it's moved the needle as a parent, as a business owner, as a spouse, all the things. Curiosity has moved that needle and just helped me grow holistically across the board. Oh, yeah. Look, you're not going to get any argument from me on that. It is the number one pillar in my Spark framework. It all starts with curiosity. And you said it. Here's what's interesting. Oh, man, so much stuff here.

[00:47:58] As a kid, we are extremely curious. Some of us more than others, right? Asking the million questions. Are we there yet? What's this? Why that? Why are we doing that? And driving parents insane. But as we get into grade school, as we get into college, maybe sports, into our first, second job, we start to get into that box.

[00:48:25] And it really does depend on your environment, too. The people, right? The mentors. And this goes back to Carol Dweck's work about mindsets. If you promote that growth mindset, you know, that anything can be learned, then people will adopt that mindset. But if you take the opposite and you put, you know, you lower the ceiling, right?

[00:48:51] If you don't provide the opportunities, if you don't have things equitable, then people will get into a box. And the first thing is losing curiosity. And it's like anything else. It's a muscle, right? So it can go away. But you can also get it back. So I am wholeheartedly a huge fan.

[00:49:16] It is our number one superpower as human beings, especially in the age of AI, where we're getting all the answers. But who's asking the questions? And I just read a post yesterday. I don't know who it was. He's now the leader of AI at Meta.

[00:49:33] And he said that the number one trait that we can have as humans going forward in the workplace is to understand how to feed AI, albeit ask the questions. It's just another tool. So curiosity, absolutely. As a leader, as a human being, we need to keep curiosity. We're not making assumptions. We're not being judgmental, right?

[00:50:03] We're always asking, hmm, what if? What could be? What else could be true? What assumptions might I be making? Ooh, wow. Now, when you take a step back and pause and you're not reacting, you're not knee jerking, which is what I used to do, go from zero to 10 like that, you're making some really bad calls, right? Especially in those high pressure moments.

[00:50:31] The key is to learn to build that internal pause button so you can choose your response. So it's not chosen for you. And now you can start to have some civil conversations with the human being, even if they are difficult. Yeah, it's critical. I mean, we could probably go off on like a whole curiosity thing, right?

[00:50:53] And I think from a standpoint of just how we're hardwired and what we do as humans, if we stay curious, that growth, the potential is unlimited. I tell people all the time, of course I use AI, but I use AI as a tool. AI is not going to drive what we do or how we do it because the human element is critical.

[00:51:23] And if we're not asking questions, if we're not keeping the why in the forefront and we're not using and learning and growing, you know, someone said to me, AI is going to replace human resources. And I said, oh, that's cute. And they said, what do you mean? I'm sorry.

[00:51:52] I haven't heard anybody say that. It's cute. I've never heard anyone say HR is cute. But that was literally my reaction. That's cute. And they said, why? And I said, well, AI helps us gain tools. It helps us if we use it correctly. The truth is, AI can't infer anything.

[00:52:19] So if I'm standing in front of you and we're having a conversation and you say, yeah, I know my mom has been sick and that's the issue. AI is not going to pick up that there's a potential FMLA protection that this employee is due because they have an elderly parent that they must care for. Right. AI is not going to pick up on those nuances.

[00:52:48] It doesn't have the human capability to do that. What we can do is we can feed it information so that it grows. But will it ever take over humans? No, it can't because it doesn't have that element. And so and it doesn't have the element of curiosity. Right. And judgment. Judgment.

[00:53:16] At the end of the day, you can use that tool to gain information. And this was the focus of the last episode with another HR practitioner, Heather Mallette. The decision line, you know, that moment when a leader gets to a difficult conversation, what do you do? So, yes, AI, I use it all the time. Same thing. I use the way you do. It allows me to provide more ideas, you know.

[00:53:44] But at the end of the day, I need to check it and say, hmm, yeah, I don't think so. I'm going to go with this or I'm going to tweak it and make it my own. But thank you for the ideas or thank you for pressure testing, you know, this thought or idea I had. So, yeah, I am with you. I don't believe that it's going to replace humans. It's just like the Internet to some degree, you know. Sure, there's all kinds of information on the Internet.

[00:54:14] Doesn't mean it's right. But it's great. It's a great tool to help me learn and get ideas for how someone else has done their handbook. Because that's what I did when I started HR. I searched the Internet. I need a handbook for small business. Download Word. Word doc. Open it up. I'm like, wow, this isn't my company. Right. But it gave me the framework to start with, right? At least to have that stake in the ground.

[00:54:39] And then as time went on, I eventually added those layers to make it my own, to fit with how our company was and the culture that I wanted to create. So, you know, this has been great, Diane. I think you and I can talk. We definitely could talk all day about curiosity. But so what do you what's what's lighting you up right now, Diane? All the things that you've worked on.

[00:55:05] You got some great tools with the L3 resets, your civility unleash book, your speaking engagements, a lot of really cool stuff. But what gets Diane up in the morning? What's what's your spark? You know, for me, it really is helping frontline supervisors and managers. It will be what I spend literally the rest of my career doing, because what I recognize is that culture is a combination.

[00:55:34] And what we have to do is if we don't skill the middle, the core is rotten. In my experience, this is an unofficial test. But in my experience, the average supervisor deals with 15 issues before they ever escalate to anyone. Think about that.

[00:56:03] 15 issues before they say to their manager or a coworker, hey, this is happening. And what do you think? Or, hey, HR, can you assist me with this? They're dealing with 15 things. And that doesn't sound like a lot. But think about how big that actually is. Right.

[00:56:22] So we're asking people who we haven't given the tools to actually deal with the human element, deal with development and all the things that comes with leading. So for me, it's the tools. It's giving them the tools. And so, you know, we've created an AI framework. We're rolling that out. We're introducing it.

[00:56:50] And what I've said to my clients, and it's kind of funny, Todd, you'll appreciate this, is that when an issue occurs in the workplace, it's as if I'm standing next to you coaching you through how to deal with that particular issue. And for me, that's the L3 reset. For me, what I continue to say time and time again is my goal is not about me.

[00:57:19] My goal is that every person go to work and work in an environment that's healthy, that's conducive of them being their whole self. It is an environment where they can grow and learn and be themselves. And I am fundamentally of the belief that work shouldn't hurt. And we have a whole lot of people that are going to work, and it's painful.

[00:57:44] One statistic I read is that 28% of new hires cry sometime within their first two weeks. Think about that. One third, just shy of one third of every new hire cries within their first two weeks. That's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking from every angle, right?

[00:58:11] It's heartbreaking because, hey, does that mean that we are doing a really, really bad job in how we are recruiting and ensuring that people understand the environment that they're coming into? Some people are going to cry because they miss their old coworkers or they miss this one thing. But what is happening that 28% of new hires cry within their first two weeks?

[00:58:41] We've got to fix that because what that says is work does hurt. And so what we've got to do is exactly what you said, is we've got to give our supervisors the tool to deal with the issues so that we stop bringing people in to pay them to hurt them. Because that's what we're doing, right? We're saying, I'm going to pay you for this pain. Take it, and here's your paycheck, and thank you, keep going.

[00:59:10] But there's a better way, and that better way is dealing with the conflicts, dealing with the issues, teaching supervisors emotional intelligence, giving them the skills that they need so that when they walk into the plant and there's a confrontation between two employees, they know how to handle it, they know how to set clear expectations. So that's, for me, what lights me up.

[00:59:36] It's literally that leadership development element that gives them the ability so that the culture is better for everyone across the board. Amen. I love it. And that's why I got into my work is to, I saw too many dim sparks walking around the office like zombies. We, and you said it, we all deserve to be lit up by the work we do. We work too much. Yeah.

[01:00:05] 90,000 hours in a lifetime. We deserve to be lit up by it. And everything that you're doing is helping that, Diane. So I thank you for the hard work. I can tell you are very passionate about what you do. You've created some amazing tools and frameworks. And we'll link to a couple of those in the show notes as well, or at least information about them so they can reach out to you.

[01:00:33] But I love this, Diane. Thank you so much for your time, your devotion to the craft and to just making work better. Right? You know what? Thank you, Todd. Because in what we both do, we're both saying this matters. The humans matter. We got to re-spark. You, right? You got to spark that element.

[01:01:01] And there's so many different fractions to that. And what I always say to people is, you know, the pie is infinite. Right? It's infinite. Like, there's so many elements that need our expertise. It needs us to say, hey, let's fix this because it needs to be fixed. That it doesn't mean Todd doesn't eat or Diane doesn't eat.

[01:01:28] What it means is we are making the workplace better location by location, team by team. And that's what really matters. And someone said to me when I was writing my book, they're like, man, you gave away the farm. I said, you're right. Because what I wasn't interested in is I was not interested in writing a book that people would go, oh, that gave me crumbs.

[01:01:56] Now I got to go to the expert to get the information. No. I want to give you what you need to make the culture better. Because at the end of the day, my goal is that work doesn't hurt, period. And so the framework is there because I'm vested and you're vested. And so thank you for the work that you do.

[01:02:21] I, you know, Disrupt HR, I literally was just like, dude, he is amazing. Amazing. And so I appreciate what you do and appreciate how you deliver in that. You literally bring the spark to the workplace and to every environment that you're in. So thank you, Todd. Yeah. Now that's, that goes a long way.

[01:02:44] And sometimes on a Friday, you need that, you know, you need that a rainy Friday in Northeast Ohio. But now this has been great, Diane. I'm blessed that you and I got to meet and have this really wonderful and important conversation. I know that you and I are going to continue to have further conversations. I wish you the best of luck in your business and your endeavors. Keep that spark lit and we will get back together here soon.

[01:03:14] Thank you, sir. I appreciate it more than you know and appreciate the work that you do. Thank you. Wow. Another great episode. Thanks for joining us on the Bolt Podcast. Look, if today's conversation sparks something for you, pass it along. Every share creates a ripple and that ripple has the power to change somebody's life. If you want more information, more conversations, show notes, resources, or free tools, check out my website, ToddBurch.com.

[01:03:44] Look, leadership is pretty simple. It comes down to taking care of yourself and your people. Ignite that spark, protect that spark, and light the way for others. We'll see you next time, my friends.